Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff • Hacker News Board

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#141

Post by mikepurvis » Mon, Sep 26, 2016, 2:27 PM UTC

gutnor wrote: post #129

mseebach wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea is great. The problems will be with the implementation, how it will change incentives, any loopholes introduced, cost of enforcement and unintended consequences. What exactly is a repair? Are parts covered, or only labour? Think ship of Theseus. Is an upgrade a repair, can I put a better compressor, rather than like-for-like in my refrigerator when it's failed? Can I have my TV repaired by replacing all the…

I'm pessimistic too. However, the labour cost is so huge that it will offset some of your points and only give a slight edge to repair and second hand shops. If you don't have a top of the range, almost new fridge or TV, even phone, repair will almost always come close to replacement cost. And replacement give you back a 2 years guarantee with faster turnaround.

Right, but the point of this legislation is to adjust the incentives so that repair becomes possible/economical in a greater number of cases.

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#142

Post by specialist » Mon, Sep 26, 2016, 2:30 PM UTC

J-dawg wrote: post #6

This idea seems so sensible it's a no-brainer. (I'm almost dreading the comments explaining why I'm wrong!) The human race is producing unprecedented quantities of non-recyclable "stuff". It's pumped out of the ground as oil, converted into plastics, and after a short life, buried in the ground again. Maybe this wouldn't be so bad if much of it didn't also end up floating in the ocean, being eaten by animals and cont…

I'm not so sure. We must consider the whole lifecycle.

My buddy, with genuine compassion, recycles used PCs and gifts them to communities in the third world. I've read some pretty strong arguments that it'd better for everyone if they simply received the newest, cheapest PCs.

Sweden's efforts could help (symbolically) by influencing the design of future goods, to be more serviceable, upgradeable.

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#143

Post by brianwawok » Mon, Sep 26, 2016, 2:32 PM UTC

barnacs wrote: post #120

brianwawok wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The flip side is so the math Old units are much less efficient. I think last time I did the math my old fridge is rasing my power bill by $50 a year over a new one. So over 10 years that's $500 burned up in smoke and global warming. So then it's buy a new fridge for $900 vs fix old one for $100 plus $500 in burned coal over 10 years. Now if power rates doubled then it would always win to buy the new fridge even if no…

Yeah I did some math on that too but it's a bit more complicated than that. First of all, I don't trust a new fridge these days to last 10 years but I can easily see this one purring for another 20 with minor repairs. Secondly, this is a combo fridge+freezer unit, with 2 compressors. New ones only seem to have one compressor, which makes them somewhat more efficient but if it dies, both my freezer and fridge die with…

Perhaps.. but lets say in 10 years efficiency goes up another 30%. So yes even if your current fridge COULD last 20 more years, with efficiency gains the best thing for the environment COULD be to melt it down for scrap and get a newer model.

To me this is the really interesting part in all of this. If there was no efficiency gains generation to generation.. say a piece of clothing.. seems pretty obvious to make slightly better if it can last 100% longer for 20% more material/energy/cost.

Things like cars/ fridges / AC units? The math is complex. Think of all the cars on the road right now where 30 year old cars. The air in LA and SF would be like the air in Beijing or Mexico City. It is in fact both good AND bad for the environment at the same time that things are slowly retired and replaced with newer models.

But for example gas furnaces have slowly improved from 50%??? efficient to 99.9% efficient. Clearly they can't get better. But for example, heat pumps can get > 100% efficient.

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#144

Post by brianwawok » Mon, Sep 26, 2016, 2:35 PM UTC

Kadin wrote: post #136

brianwawok wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well saying you are not some form of Christian. Both an atheist and a Muslim would have no chance of being elected. Jewish seems to be generally okay. Not sure on Buddhist or other eastern religions.

As of 2010 there were two Muslims in the US Congress. There were also two or three Buddhists. (The number varies by source, I think because of confusion over how to categorize Soka Gakkai.) There were nine "Unspecified", which is probably what you'd put down if you were an atheist. It is certainly helpful, and perhaps required, to be Christian (some flavor of Protestant, specifically) in many parts of the US if you w…

That is surprising data in a good way.

President I think is a tougher nut to crack, because you need to cross all the different states.. some being more liberal, and some more conservative.

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#145

Post by vlehto » Mon, Sep 26, 2016, 2:38 PM UTC

J-dawg wrote: post #6

This idea seems so sensible it's a no-brainer. (I'm almost dreading the comments explaining why I'm wrong!) The human race is producing unprecedented quantities of non-recyclable "stuff". It's pumped out of the ground as oil, converted into plastics, and after a short life, buried in the ground again. Maybe this wouldn't be so bad if much of it didn't also end up floating in the ocean, being eaten by animals and cont…

>This idea seems so sensible it's a no-brainer.

I have not heard any "cut VAT" scheme that doesn't sound really sensible.

My suggestion would be to cut VAT alltogether so we can save our souls from endless tax cut jungle. But that's not going to happen, because VAT is effectively barrier against foreign goods, important source of government income and can't go progressive. As a result conservatives love it to death.

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#146

Post by jakobegger » Mon, Sep 26, 2016, 2:44 PM UTC

blibble wrote: post #123

ab5tract wrote: post #62

Correct me if I am wrong, but under ISDS rules (a la TPP/TTIP), companies could now sue Sweden for potential lost profits as a result of this legislation, right? (Assuming Sweden is signed onto an ISDS treaty, which it probably is not).

looks like a VAT cut, so I expect the EU commission will be after them too

It's perfectly legal to lower tax rates on certain products or services. Most EU countries already have multiple VAT rates; eg. in Austria food is taxed at 10% whereas most other stuff is taxed at 20%

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#147

Post by skrause » Mon, Sep 26, 2016, 2:45 PM UTC

blibble wrote: post #123

ab5tract wrote: post #62

Correct me if I am wrong, but under ISDS rules (a la TPP/TTIP), companies could now sue Sweden for potential lost profits as a result of this legislation, right? (Assuming Sweden is signed onto an ISDS treaty, which it probably is not).

looks like a VAT cut, so I expect the EU commission will be after them too

Different VAT rates for different types of products are not a problem in EU, in fact almost all European countries also have a reduced VAT rate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_value_added_tax...

Quite often the reduced rate applies e.g. to food, but it really can be any product category.

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#148

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Sep 26, 2016, 2:48 PM UTC

keeganjw wrote: post #103

legulere wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also lots of things wrong in Scandinavia. There's segregation between the "native" population and the immigrants/their descendants. Suspects for crime, including children are put into isolation by default. Strict drug laws, strict alcohol laws that lead to binge drinking instead of a normal enjoyment of beer/wine. A strong sense that they're the best in the world which they often actively carry outwards. Stil…

This reminds me of my time in Stockholm. I was there for a few months and saw quite a few homeless people. I don't remember a single one of them being a white "native" Swede. They all appeared to be immigrants. Swedes might brag about their good social welfare (and it's great if you can get it) but it doesn't seem to be applied evenly.

[deleted]

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#149

Post by jcranmer » Mon, Sep 26, 2016, 2:52 PM UTC

ab5tract wrote: post #131

madgar wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US, I can sue you just for making this hacker news comment. Doesn't mean I'll make it past the first hearing.

That lawsuit would be in a civil court, with civil lawyers and actual judges. Not a room full of round-robin corporate laywers. My comment was not about whether it would be successful. My question was whether it provided the means to initiate a lawsuit.

So you'd rather the case be decided by a single lawyer^H^H^H^H^H^H judge than a panel of lawyers. Even in common law jurisdictions, most of these sorts of cases tend to focus on disputes over issues of law (hence tried by a judge), not issues of fact (which are the only issues which proceed to a jury trial). Judges are usually lawyers before becoming judges--that's not terribly surprising, considering that judges are expected to know a lot of legal theory, which is essentially the same training you undergo to become a lawyer.

Fearing the provisions of ISDS would undermine the principles of justice means that you would rather trust the judgements of a single, likely overworked, lawyer who is expected to know the entire relevant body of law and case history for his or her jurisdiction over the judgements of a panel of lawyers who are likely to have somewhat specialized in the area of dispute being covered.

Re: Sweden Wants to Fight Disposable Culture with Tax Breaks for Repairing Old Stuff

#150

Post by ersii » Mon, Sep 26, 2016, 2:53 PM UTC

There seems to be plenty here that like the idea of lowering the Value Add Tax on repairs. Let me ask: Why stop at 12.5% VAT for repairs? If you'd go all the way down to 0% - the repairs could potentially be up to 25% cheaper than they are now.