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TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

independent.co.uk

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Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#91
post #21

What really bothers me, as citizen of an european country, why is it possible to have secret deals? If I don't know about such deals how can I call my representative to oppose them? Or encourage them to take the deal if it's a good one. AFAIK, TTIP was leaked and that's the only way european citizens knew about it. Why is it legal? Because all I see is corporations trying to make a sweet deal with governments, and th…

There are no secret trade deals. What there are is closed-door trade negotiations , because it's impossible to get anything done if every time you open your mouth you have street protests from the industries you're considering removing protectionist measures from.

What there are is closed-door trade negotiations, because it's impossible to get anything done if every time you open your mouth you have street protests from the industries you're considering removing protectionist measures from.

That's a common argument, but it doesn't really stand up. National legislatures manage to negotiate and pass laws just fine through open negotiations, even though many of them have hundreds of participants representing a range of political parties, as well as often having a local representation aspect. In many cases, there is some sort of multi-stage process, with a balance between completely open debate to establish principles and general approval on the one hand and smaller sessions with particularly interested representatives hammering out the fine details on the other, which seems to work reasonably well.

While we're addressing common fallacies about secret trade negotations, the idea put forward by others here that you can't tell what is really on the table unless everything is done in secret is also dubious, because it means trade negotiators can put things on the table that don't have the support of those they allegedly represent. Those people are then presented with a fait accompli where their only options are to accept in its entirety or strike the whole thing down, often after many years and a small fortune have been spent working on the deal. What benefit came from all those secret TTIP negotiations if ultimately it's clear that the EU members aren't going to accept such a one-sided deal or give up what the people considered unacceptable concessions anyway?

The idea that the secrecy prevents lobbyists representing special interest groups from influencing the deal is so implausible that I won't bother countering it, except to observe that these controversial international trade deals often seem to include wording that is remarkably similar to statements previously given by exactly the kind of lobbyists and SIGs we're talking about.

We're supposed to be talking about professional politicians and negotiators here, and we're supposed to be talking about making deals for the mutual benefit of both sides. If the professionals can't identify areas of common ground and work with a more transparent process for negotiation than doing the entire thing behind doors and then presenting a single final result with the people or their elected representatives having nothing but a power of veto, I contend that the deals being made probably aren't worth much anyway and certainly have no democratic mandate.

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#92
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The full text is going to be released. I've heard most trade deals are negotiated this way, but I don't know how true that is.

Why would it not be released? CETA has been public for two years now. No reason to assume different about other EU trade agreements.

I'm sure it will be released. I meant I don't know if it's true that most trade deals are negotiated in secrecy, sorry.

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are no secret trade deals. What there are is closed-door trade negotiations , because it's impossible to get anything done if every time you open your mouth you have street protests from the industries you're considering removing protectionist measures from.

I understand the reasoning, but if your requests trigger street protests then maybe it's time to reconsider those requests.

When you negotiate, you give and take. If the negotiations are important, someone's bound to really dislike part of what's being given and taken.

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#94
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are no secret trade deals. What there are is closed-door trade negotiations , because it's impossible to get anything done if every time you open your mouth you have street protests from the industries you're considering removing protectionist measures from.

FWIW, the group TTIP was mostly going to "remove protectionist measures from" was consumers.

And people having jobs in those industries in the EU probably :-)

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#95
post #8
post #3

> European Union ministers today admitted that a giant EU-US trade deal is dead in its current form , with drastic change needed to salvage any hope of a deal going ahead. The devil, as always, is in the fine print - a cynic might read that to mean "TTIP has gotten such a bad reputation we would rather wait a few more years so the public forgets all about it, then try again." In fact, I am tempted to quote Lovecraft…

An optimist might read that to mean "Europeans found out that trade deals can be a lot better than what TTIP offered. Such as CETA which the EU is about to close with Canada".

CETA is terrible though.

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand the reasoning, but if your requests trigger street protests then maybe it's time to reconsider those requests.

The problem is that minority can organize a street protest to protect its interest at the cost of interest of general public who is not that motivated to take it to the street on what is one of many (and often not in the category of the most important ones) issues for them. One example is Uber. Everyone I know who uses it loves it, it's cheaper, more reliable, the service is better as well. Despite all of it there ar…

> because it hurts one group (taxi drivers) a lot

That's true, but I think that's only part of the problem. I always interpreted it as a precedent to circumvent existing regulation* in a demand-constrained market.

The market for on-demand-personal-transport-by-car doesn't necessarily equate to taxi companies (it USED to be, pre-disruptive-tech) and in that way it's a competitive advantage to Uber, because it does not (or did not) need to conform to that regulatory context. Had Uber been a taxi startup that launched the app there would be no such problem, though it's unlikely they would have been successful. It's true that taxi companies might try to influence regulation to their benefit and perhaps the Uber model is simply more suited to today's world. But I think it's wrong to state that taxi drivers are simply some small minority trying to stifle innovation because it benefits them, there's more fundamental issues at work in this case. And as a somewhat ambiguous precedent you can see politicians flailing with the idea, not having a ready made response. Uber was not outlawed simply because of taxi drivers.

* I'm blindly assuming that's the case in most countries.

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#97
post #60
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing you have presented here is rationale for denying the public insight into the process. If there is something "meta" about a specific deal, the public can and will acknowledge that. The implication you're making is that the general populace is too stupid to understand complex issues and should mindlessly accept the decisions of their politicians without any insight at all(let alone input).

The population doesn't have time to understand the intricate details of every trade deal. Not because they're stupid, just because they don't specialise in politics.

Not everyone will have the time or ability to understand the intricate details, but unless no-one has that time and ability, there is still a strong argument for keeping things transparent and, as a consequence, open to scrutiny by independent experts (and anyone else who will be affected by the deal and wishes to take an interest).

Exactly the same considerations apply when making laws without our own countries, yet most of us would probably consider having our representatives working entirely behind closed doors very suspicious and many of us think freedom of information laws are an essential part of our democratic processes.

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When America abolished slavery it didn't trigger a protest, it triggered a civil war. Sometimes what's right and what's popular aren't very similar. (but I'm not defending the TTIP)

The United States didn't abolish slavery until after the civil war as one of the Reconstruction Amendments. In a way, the war triggered abolition (or spurred it to happen more quickly), not the other way around.

Yes, abolition happened afterwards. Congratulations, you can argue pedantically, perpetuating the seeming belief that the civil war had nothing to do with slavery.

The war happened overwhelmingly _because_ slavery was going to be abolished.

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#99
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What really bothers me, as citizen of an european country, why is it possible to have secret deals? Indeed. That alone, makes me not want to even take a look at the text and dismiss it right away as negative for the vast amounts of the population.

Imagine building a website for a client, and having them hover around you all the time, 24/7, looking at your screen and going: - Oh, why did you put that button in here? What do you mean "temporary"? - Why are you wasting time browsing that "documentation" site instead of writing code? - What is this "class" thing? We're egalitarian company! - Is this Ruby? Everyone knows websites are best done in PHP! Usually you'd…

Have you ever met a client who would let you build the entire site for them, over an extended period during which you're charging for your time, and only on the final day of project present it to them for the first time, offering them only the choices to accept or turn down the site with no options for review or rework?

Re: TTIP trade deal could be re-launched under a different name, say EU ministers

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand the reasoning, but if your requests trigger street protests then maybe it's time to reconsider those requests.

The problem is that minority can organize a street protest to protect its interest at the cost of interest of general public who is not that motivated to take it to the street on what is one of many (and often not in the category of the most important ones) issues for them. One example is Uber. Everyone I know who uses it loves it, it's cheaper, more reliable, the service is better as well. Despite all of it there ar…

It really is a problem when special interest group can force their way at the cost of the public just because they are louder and organized enough to take the matter to the streets

Arguably, this is Uber's business model. Circumventing the public by ignoring their laws (some terrible ones that prevent competition, but others that do things like ensure transportation access for disabled people), and then worming their way out of it by buying politicians, intimidating journalists, and with slick marketing campaigns.

On the balance, I find it hard to believe that a street protest is more threatening to the outcome of trade negotiations than the wealth, organization, and political influence of corporations seeking sweetheart deals.

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