Careful. Start talking about the US defeating Germany and the Russians will have something to say. There is good reason why in the US it is called WWII and in Russia "The Great Patriotic War". The walk from Moscow to Berlin was much longer than from France.
It's not so much the Americans defeating the Germans that makes me proud, but rather the immense technical achievement that was done in such little time out of necessity. It is a perfect example of the American ingenuitive ideal. It's shouldn't be taken as a slight to other nations but rather as admiration for the accomplishments of those who came before me
Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]
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Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]
#72Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]
#73Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]
#74Careful. Start talking about the US defeating Germany and the Russians will have something to say. There is good reason why in the US it is called WWII and in Russia "The Great Patriotic War". The walk from Moscow to Berlin was much longer than from France.
Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]
#75Earlier quoted context omitted.
How many people were prematurely dying every month in the Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere after we took back the Philippines? The latest, best estimate I've seen, in the excellent book Hell to Pay: Operation Downfall and the Invasion of Japan, 1945-1947 ( https://www.amazon.com/Hell-Pay-Operation-Downfall-1945-1947... ) was 400,000, up from the 250,000 I'd picked up somewhere I can't remember. It had many int…
you don't understand my point: the US is the only country on earth that ever dropped nuclear weapons on civilians. US generals decided to kill civilians, in retaliation, to achieve pure terror. the US lost 3.5k civilians on 9/11 and started 2 wars for it. but all this mil-porn floats around, civilian armchair heroes debate death and destruction with zero empathy or connection to reality. just utterly inhuman.
Except, of course, Hiroshima was an entirely legitimate military target as well, it was among other things the Second General Army headquarters, e.g. over 3,000 of them were on a parade ground 900 yards from ground zero doing physical training. And it was adjacent to the naval center of Kure.
In Nagasaki, 90% of the population worked for 4 big arms or precursor companies (per Wikipedia), and in general the designated target cities were important industrial centers, or at least still were because by then we'd fire bombed all of the rest of them, excepting the 4 targets/alternates, Kyoto for the obvious reasons (it's the Emperor's city), and Tokyo was also left off the target list, for not only did we need people of authority still alive to surrender, there wasn't any left of it worth bombing. You do know that the early March firebombing of it everything went "right" and we destroyed 16 square miles and killed on the order of 100,000 people? A worst outcome than either of the atomic bombings.
You're saying, quite explicitly, since you don't deny my above facts, that it would have been better to let 400,000 completely innocent civilians per month in the Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere to continue to be killed, and to kill millions, probably tens of millions of Japanese in Operations Starvation and the like, and in Downfall, the invasion of the home islands, which would have also killed western allied troops by the 100,000s of thousands.
You'd truly prefer to have made East Asia that much more of an abattoir, further embittering all concerned, well, the survivors, that is?
the US lost 3.5k civilians on 9/11 and started 2 wars for it.
Not exactly, we were still in a de facto if not de jure state of war with Iraq, remember the no-fly zone et. al. left over from Saddam's invasion of Kuwait? His attempt to assassinate G. H. W. Bush? The decision to finish him off was sound, the attempted nation building afterwards was the true insanity.
Invade Afghanistan and take down the regime that provided aid, comfort and shelter to al Qaeda and Osama ben Laden? You bet, you f-ck with us, past the point we get seriously angry, and we will destroy you, and if needed, through two very different administrations, hunt you down to the ends of the earth and kill you.
civilian armchair heroes debate death and destruction with zero empathy or connection to reality
I'd suggest that you speak for yourself, instead of imputing the worst possible motives on your debating opponents.
just utterly inhuman
Any serious student of history, especially the 20th Century would deny that, it's peace that's "utterly inhuman", war and violence of other types is the natural human condition.
We don't have to like it, but it's silly to deny it.
Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]
#76Earlier quoted context omitted.
>And of course, the bottom line is that these bombings worked. All else is speculation. The imminent USSR invasion from the north played a significant part in the calculus of Japan's surrender. Too often the use of nuclear weapons alone gets credit, but there was a more complex political/diplomatic context surrounding _why_ they worked in the case. Links for anyone interested in reading more on the topic: https://www…
The imminent USSR invasion from the north played a significant part in the calculus of Japan's surrender. Well, it added to things falling apart at an accelerating rate in just about every way. I'm of the opinion that the USSR's actions didn't hurt in the least, but we have absolutely no way of knowing if they were critical, and if so, how much. Probably the biggest thing was making the Army look even more incompeten…
Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]
#77That shows at any rate that the Americans are capable of real cooperation on a tremendous scale. That would have been impossible in Germany. Each one said that the other was unimportant.
Organization & management were key to winning.
Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]
#78Earlier quoted context omitted.
What a strange reaction to reading this document.
If you read the transcript, you can see that the Germans really were in awe of what was accomplished by the Americans with the time and resources available. It makes me proud to know that my nation can get pass the BS when push comes to shove and do the impossible when the impossible needs doing. As an engineer I have a profound understanding and respect for people who dare to do what others said couldn't be done. It…
Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]
#79Earlier quoted context omitted.
The imminent USSR invasion from the north played a significant part in the calculus of Japan's surrender. Well, it added to things falling apart at an accelerating rate in just about every way. I'm of the opinion that the USSR's actions didn't hurt in the least, but we have absolutely no way of knowing if they were critical, and if so, how much. Probably the biggest thing was making the Army look even more incompeten…
I do believe that the we have some idea of went on in the meetings involved leading up to the surrender, and that Manchuria was invoked as much or even more than the nuclear bombings.
Everything I've read indicates that it was the second bomb, which indeed happened on the same day as the declaration of war, that really got the attention of the rulers of Japan, and got them serious about surrendering.
Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]
#80>GERLACH: If Germany had had a weapon which would have won the war, then Germany would have been in the right and the others in the wrong, and whether conditions in Germany are better now than they would have been after a HITLER victory – >HEISENBERG: I don't think so. On the other hand, the days of small countries are over. Suppose HITLER had succeeded in producing his EUROPE and there had been no uranium in EUROPE.…
>HARTECK: Who is to blame?
>(?) VOICE: HAHN is to blame.
>WEIZSÄCKER: I think it's dreadful of the Americans to have done it. I think it is madness on their part.
>HEISENBERG: One can't say that. One could equally well say "That's the quickest way of ending the war.”
>HAHN: That's what consoles me.
Sharp.