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Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org

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Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#51

Post by mindviews »

hga wrote: post #43
pinaceae wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many US civilians were killed by Japanese troops total vs. how many innocent women, kids, elderly, artists were firebombed and nuked by the US in Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki? This comic book version of history present in the US is disgusting. The US could have nuked a 100% military installation. The US could have detonated the nukes in Tokyo harbor to scare the shit out of the population. No. The US decided to nuk…

How many people were prematurely dying every month in the Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere after we took back the Philippines? The latest, best estimate I've seen, in the excellent book Hell to Pay: Operation Downfall and the Invasion of Japan, 1945-1947 ( https://www.amazon.com/Hell-Pay-Operation-Downfall-1945-1947... ) was 400,000, up from the 250,000 I'd picked up somewhere I can't remember. It had many int…

>And of course, the bottom line is that these bombings worked. All else is speculation.

The imminent USSR invasion from the north played a significant part in the calculus of Japan's surrender. Too often the use of nuclear weapons alone gets credit, but there was a more complex political/diplomatic context surrounding _why_ they worked in the case.

Links for anyone interested in reading more on the topic: https://www.amazon.com/Racing-Enemy-Stalin-Truman-Surrender/... http://archive.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2011/08... http://foreignpolicy.com/2013/05/30/the-bomb-didnt-beat-japa...

Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#52

Post by danielmorozoff »

67726e wrote: post #8
jrockway wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still don't understand why Japan gives us a pass for nuking two of their cities.

Because they started it and would have killed and estimated million of our own (millions of their own!!!) invading the home islands. Why does this happen every damn time it comes up on HN. We didn't just say "hey, fuck those nips". It was the best option for everyone involved.

Wasn't the reason to drop the bombs was to check Soviet expansion. Notably in destroyed Europe where the red army had amassed a huge force and the 1.5million manchurian offensive which was about to invade Japan on land , which it did August 9th 1945 right before the Japanese surrender

Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#53

Post by Cyph0n »

67726e wrote: post #48
Cyph0n wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not as clear cut as you make it out to be in my opinion. Please think twice and look at the aftermath and devastation that resulted from using nuclear bombs on a civilian population. Both sides were at fault, but to say that the U.S. was objectively right is an oversimplification.

The firebombing of Tokyo itself did much worse. The projected losses were so insanely higher for ALL sides it's just stupid to act as though the bombings were not the best options available. I consume every bit of WWII history I can get my hands on, but your suggestion is nothing but revisionist. Please stop spreading this insane notion.

I don't claim to be well-versed on WWII history, but that's my opinion until I hear a convincing argument as to why using a nuclear bomb was necessary. Just saying it was the "best option" isn't too convincing imo. There were many prominent scientists who advised against using it, so it wasn't a unanimous decision as you make it out to be.

> The firebombing of Tokyo itself did much worse.

Are you considering the aftereffects of radiation on top of the civilian death toll?

I think the U.S. is quite fortunate that they bombed Japan and not another country. Only the Japanese could so quickly recover from the horrors of a large-scale nuclear bombing in such a short period of time. It makes people who blame the U.S. look bad because "oh but they're doing fine now, so it wasn't that big of a deal".

Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#54

Post by Cyph0n »

Spooky23 wrote: post #49
Cyph0n wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not as clear cut as you make it out to be in my opinion. Please think twice and look at the aftermath and devastation that resulted from using nuclear bombs on a civilian population. Both sides were at fault, but to say that the U.S. was objectively right is an oversimplification.

It's total war. That's what happens. The atomic bomb was horrific in its effect, but it was no different that the industrial scale bombardment implemented throughout the war. Even a cursory study of this subject going back to the manipulations in China in the 1930s makes it pretty clear that the US/Allied cause was righteous.

> Even a cursory study of this subject going back to the manipulations in China in the 1930s makes it pretty clear that the US/Allied cause was righteous.

Ah, but who ended up pardoning the scientists behind the atrocities committed against the Chinese for "precious" data?

I think "righteous" is too strong a word to use when talking about war. Reminds of the Crusades tbh.

Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#55

Post by tptacek »

Cyph0n wrote: post #53
67726e wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The firebombing of Tokyo itself did much worse. The projected losses were so insanely higher for ALL sides it's just stupid to act as though the bombings were not the best options available. I consume every bit of WWII history I can get my hands on, but your suggestion is nothing but revisionist. Please stop spreading this insane notion.

I don't claim to be well-versed on WWII history, but that's my opinion until I hear a convincing argument as to why using a nuclear bomb was necessary . Just saying it was the "best option" isn't too convincing imo. There were many prominent scientists who advised against using it, so it wasn't a unanimous decision as you make it out to be. > The firebombing of Tokyo itself did much worse. Are you considering the aft…

Yes, the casualty figures for the bombs include radiation.

From what I can tell, it is difficult to make an argument against the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki based on the civilian toll. The pacification of Japan without the bomb would seemingly have led to far more civilian deaths.

Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#56

Post by hga »

mindviews wrote: post #51
hga wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many people were prematurely dying every month in the Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere after we took back the Philippines? The latest, best estimate I've seen, in the excellent book Hell to Pay: Operation Downfall and the Invasion of Japan, 1945-1947 ( https://www.amazon.com/Hell-Pay-Operation-Downfall-1945-1947... ) was 400,000, up from the 250,000 I'd picked up somewhere I can't remember. It had many int…

>And of course, the bottom line is that these bombings worked. All else is speculation. The imminent USSR invasion from the north played a significant part in the calculus of Japan's surrender. Too often the use of nuclear weapons alone gets credit, but there was a more complex political/diplomatic context surrounding _why_ they worked in the case. Links for anyone interested in reading more on the topic: https://www…

The imminent USSR invasion from the north played a significant part in the calculus of Japan's surrender.

Well, it added to things falling apart at an accelerating rate in just about every way. I'm of the opinion that the USSR's actions didn't hurt in the least, but we have absolutely no way of knowing if they were critical, and if so, how much. Probably the biggest thing was making the Army look even more incompetent, when they needed to be squelched ... well, that had been needed for decades....

Because the real action was in far off Manchuria, which we were ever more effectively cutting off from the home islands. And it wasn't like the USSR had the ability to project serious power into the latter without our help (and even then there main effort was of course focused on Eastern Europe), there was no serious "imminent USSR invasion from the north" in the offing.

At best, they could have taken a port on northern Hokkaido, which would have been utterly obnoxious after the surrender, but wouldn't change in the least the calculus of the Japanese plans to resist on the southern home islands where we were the critical threat. And where they had a real chance of "winning" as they perceived it (see Hell To Pay for lots more details) ... although that might not have turned out well given our chemical weapons capabilities, which those who didn't know about the Manhattan Project were ramping up.

In fact, after the Navy busted those railway ferries than ran from it to Honshu (some had steam turbines and could do 17 knots!), causing a severe immediate transportation problem due to the lost coal supply, I seriously doubt Hokkaido's contributions to the war effort going forward could even be significant, especially since we were hardly finished in cutting the link between the two islands.

Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#57

Post by whoopdedo »

zerooneinfinity wrote: post #15

Some of them seemed relieved the war was going to be over. It was also interesting they weren't that interested in winning. HEISENBERG: One can't say that. One could equally well say "That's the quickest way of ending the war.” HAHN: That's what consoles me WEIZSÄCKER: I believe the reason we didn't do it was because all the physicists didn't want to do it, on principle. If we had all wanted Germany to win the war we…

Might they have known or suspected that they were being recorded? Their words may have been chosen to make them sound good were they to be brought before a tribunal.

Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#58

Post by 67726e »

Cyph0n wrote: post #53
67726e wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The firebombing of Tokyo itself did much worse. The projected losses were so insanely higher for ALL sides it's just stupid to act as though the bombings were not the best options available. I consume every bit of WWII history I can get my hands on, but your suggestion is nothing but revisionist. Please stop spreading this insane notion.

I don't claim to be well-versed on WWII history, but that's my opinion until I hear a convincing argument as to why using a nuclear bomb was necessary . Just saying it was the "best option" isn't too convincing imo. There were many prominent scientists who advised against using it, so it wasn't a unanimous decision as you make it out to be. > The firebombing of Tokyo itself did much worse. Are you considering the aft…

Again, what we did to Tokyo was far worse and that somehow never comes up. In this case, nukes were actually not the worst thing we did. I never claimed a unanimous decision, but even with hindsight there is no convincing argument you could possibly make for an alternative invasion of Japan. It would simply have been to horrible for all parties.

> Only the Japanese could so quickly recover from the horrors of a large-scale nuclear bombing

Ever heard of the Wirtschaftswunder? US support post-war was crucial for a lot of countries' recovery.

Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#59

Post by blackflame7000 »

kmonad wrote: post #17
blackflame7000 wrote: post #2

Very cool Article! For all the political discord going on in this day and age, reading this transcript really does make me feel proud to be an American.

What a strange reaction to reading this document.

If you read the transcript, you can see that the Germans really were in awe of what was accomplished by the Americans with the time and resources available. It makes me proud to know that my nation can get pass the BS when push comes to shove and do the impossible when the impossible needs doing. As an engineer I have a profound understanding and respect for people who dare to do what others said couldn't be done. It's one of the things that motivates me to learn. For me, I think it's really cool to hear others say "Wow I didn't think you could do that!"

Re: Transcript of Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#60

Post by blackflame7000 »

davesque wrote: post #33
blackflame7000 wrote: post #2

Very cool Article! For all the political discord going on in this day and age, reading this transcript really does make me feel proud to be an American.

I actually agree. It seems there was no other time in recent history when we were truly in the right about so many things. I believe there are some passages in this document that touch on this: "HAHN: I must honestly say that I would have sabotaged the war if I had been in a position to do so." "...They then went on to discuss the feelings of the British and American scientists who had perfected the bomb and HEISENBE…

Yes that is an excellent point! Moral superiority and the imparitive to act are highly motivating factors. What's interesting is that when faced with the opposite senario, humans tend to default to inaction rather than be a whistleblower. Moral superiority is only motivating if the majority is on your side.
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