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Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

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Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Boy oh boy, so many. Any time a woman dares to lament how maybe her experiences in tech are colored by that minority status, Hacker News pounces en masse with little self-awareness. Not everyone on HN, of course. But, overall, threads like this are... distressing to read.

I think there's quite a bit of self-awareness and honesty in questioning these types of initiatives. So many of these "women in tech" discussions are thiny veiled power plays to take economic and decision making power away from developers. In the past few years we've seen feminists call for Linus Torvalds' head, attacks on the _concept_ of meritocracy, codes of conduct forced down many open source project's throats,…

> I think there's quite a bit of self-awareness and honesty in questioning these types of initiatives.

Sometimes "self awareness" is code for "willingness to limit oneself to 'approved positions'"

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#372

Cue defensive comments from male readers...

Boy oh boy, so many. Any time a woman dares to lament how maybe her experiences in tech are colored by that minority status, Hacker News pounces en masse with little self-awareness. Not everyone on HN, of course. But, overall, threads like this are... distressing to read.

The vote total on this went quite a bit up, and now has crashed all the way down. It'd be cool to see upvote/downvote splits instead of having to deduce them by paying frequent enough attention to track history in this way.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm just baffled by this comment. You seem to mean as in "these women are setting a double standard, see!". As in, the cure these women are proposing is just more of the disease. However, it implies you think that the women told "you are not welcome here" is currently a solved problem, a thing of the past, and that they don't actually face any scenarios were they are told "you are not welcome here". Or, at the very l…

> However, it implies you think It does none of the sort. It correctly points out a double standard in supposed progressive culture and that's it. As for "clubs": > "Putting on a man-tailored suit with shoulder pads and imitating all the worst behavior of men? This is the noblest thing that women can think of?" -- George Carlin But hey, what good old George surely didn't realize (being such a sexist as he was who wou…

You really got caught up in your rant, but nothing up there in my post is a defense of said clubs. I'm not a fan of them, and my post wasn't about them.

The fact that two wrongs don't make a right is taken so, so far by some reactionary people, that they basically end up pretending that the first wrong is blown out of proportion or doesn't really exist.

Which is exactly what that poster implicitly revealed by offering up that thought experiment. Imagine men saying to women "you are not welcome here". Yeah. Imagine.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#374
post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're a man, and say that you want to teach kids "people" will suspect you of being a pedophile.

Yes, and not if you are a woman. Is this 'female privilege'?

No, but it's one of the obstacles to overcome if you want more male teachers.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah, they don't seem to, and it's not. Isn't intellectual debate fun? Also, what do they disagree on - that an Iraqi bombed to death is worse off than even a poor albino woman in the US? That starving to death in Africa as a male is worse than being a female engineer wherever ? Technically, you just called "most female engineers" very ignorant and selfish.

Maybe you should talk to some women engineers sometime and get their opinion. Because I have spoken to a lot of them, and read about many of their experiences. And the vast majority of them say the same thing. That they have to deal with serious problems that their male counterparts do not. And just because other people have things worse, doesn't mean that other important problems don't exist.

> they have to deal with serious problems that their male counterparts do not.

Who denied that? But that still leaves the question is how to react to that, and furthermore, with what motivation, and what long-term goals, if any. Which is off-topic, granted, but it's not like I mean any of this to say that "asking a female engineer is dumb, why would that even be a thing", at least not as far as I'm concerned. It's a great idea, which is why I don't see much to talk about there. When a question comes to mind, I'll pose it, until then I might still respond to tangents others went on.

> And just because other people have things worse, doesn't mean that other important problems don't exist.

No, but it's a great litmus test for differentiating between people who care about inequality where it affects them, and not so much when it affects others. For something that has morality as the sole argument, that matters. It has nothing to do with engineering either. On the one hand, John Lennon's song "Woman is the nigger of the world" is still sadly true, on the other hand, so is Ron Dellums' response to the controversy it caused:

> If you define "niggers" as someone whose lifestyle is defined by others, whose opportunities are defined by others, whose role in society are defined by others, then Good News! You don't have to be black to be a "nigger" in this society. Most of the people in America are "niggers".

-- Ron Dellums

Is that what-aboutism? Or just saying "yeah, and if this upsets you, the next thing I'm going to show you is going to make you mad, because it contains an even HIGHER concentration of what you say makes you mad about this thing!". If then people react like cork to a magnet to that higher concentration, it's not the values and principles they care about, it's that they might get something out of it. Which all sorts of people do in all sorts of areas, making them lamers in my books, nothing more, nothing less.

Yes, the victimization happened and happens, and it's unacceptable and a screaming injustice. But there is still, on top of that, this fork in the road: where the question comes up whether someone wants to find ways to STOP being a victim, or if they want to find ways to USE that status. Both approaches are used by people, and they are mutually exclusive. Being off-topic doesn't make it less true or less unsettling a blind spot. Something like Crockford getting disinvited would never ever happened with reversed genders, and we're still talking about how only women have those unique experiences? I agree it doesn't matter in scale -- women "have it worse" atm in many respects -- but it does matter in principle, and where I get a scent that it doesn't, I absolutely am out, and so are dozens of women I know.

Yes, they want a fair shot, they don't want to die the death of a thousand paper cuts, but still no, resoundingly no, they don't want a vagina pass. They want to be peers, and being more than that would be just as bad to them as being less than that. They are not corrupt people, they have character. I suspect it correlates to that, and that many females, engineer or not, actually DO notice that on top of the shitty end of the stick they receive, there are these assholes prancing around with a vagina pass, making it worse for them and everybody for personal gain. So again, while it's off-topic, and wasn't even on my radar before I saw with what rhetoric and handwaving Jacob Appelbaum was assassinated in front of our eyes, I absolutely consider it a deal breaker, an elephant on the couch, something that needs to be dealt with and nipped in the bud. I am absolutely on board with and loyal to anyone who shares this disgust of doing using victimhood to victimize - the rest can fend for themselves. Against the better part of humanity too, I dare say.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A) I see the tech industry shaping the future for the world. The world is comprised of a diverse group of people. How can a narrow group of people understand the needs of everyone? B) There are a shortage of labor in tech

> I see the tech industry shaping the future for the world. The world is comprised of a diverse group of people. How can a narrow group of people understand the needs of everyone? People should build tech that they find interesting. It's not our job as engineers to try to save the world. I program because I find it inherently fascinating. If other people benefit from my work, great. If not, great. > There are a short…

> People should build tech that they find interesting. It's not our job as engineers to try to save the world. I program because I find it inherently fascinating. If other people benefit from my work, great. If not, great.

This is one of the attitudes that I dislike the most among certain parts of the tech industry. (I work pretty much exclusively in open source, where this is particularly strong.) Our work has real consequences for real people. Our decisions in setting the direction of projects, products and companies end up being good for some people and bad for others.

Sure, I program because I find it fascinating - but to ignore the broader social context of what we do is just selfish.

(FWIW, one of the other attitudes that I also hate among certain parts of our industry is that "engineers should try to save the world". That's just plain arrogant.)

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#377
post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shun women because if I casually mention saying something about having talked to a non male while my wife wasn't around the wife'll beat me. If I don't say anything about talking to non males then I'm hiding things, which never goes well if wife ever meets a non male coworker who doesn't describe me as super shy

Y'all have some super-paranoid jealous partners, if you can't even talk to a colleague of a particular gender, purely as colleagues. I hope both for your partner and for you that they stop being that way someday.

that's cute. not married eh?

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm reading this as sarcastic. While there's some remote chance this could be misinterpreted, there's a remote chance that talking to any woman at all at any point could be misinterpreted as prurient interest. It's sort of a boring point. Realistically, the conversation can go something like "hey, i'm going to the break area for coffee, wanna come?" ... "So how is your work going?" ... "Huh, that sounds ... Anything…

A casual, "Hey I'm going to lunch, care to join?" works well with my colleagues. Usually they decline, to which one can reply, "Ok, have fun. See you in an hour"

i would never, ever ask another man out for lunch or coffee, just as i would never ever ask a woman out for lunch or coffee, and would equally decline if was asked.

Work doesn't need to be about buddies. work is about work. That's why you have a personal life. keep the two separate.

corollary #1: dear manager. I am not your friend, you are not my friend. i will never be your friend. Chances are i don't like you at all. Just be professional, and i'll be fine with that.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#379

Diversity initiatives for the tech world baffle me. The tech world is already very diverse, along lines that transcend race and gender. I am talking about national diversity. Engineering teams are composed of a huge percentage of foreign born workers who carry truly diverse experiences. The difference in experience between nationalities completely trumps the differences in experience between gender and race within th…

> American females have a very similar experience as American males How can you say that after reading the first question in the article? Do you think the editor was just cherry picking the most extreme anecdotes they could find?

I don't think anyone has the same experience that anyone else has regardless of the gender.

But this whole project is one big carefully edited carefully constructed exercise in social activism designed to promote the feminist narrative that the tech industry is a horrible misogynistic man cave. And also spread the idea that Male dominated professions are somehow inherently bad and need to redeemed by stuffing more Women into the industry by force.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#380
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ask everyone you work with for coffee. Please don't omit the women. I've mentored new hires, and in that context it's easy to say, "hey can we get tea and talk about how the first few weeks have been?"

My wife would be furious.

My wife wouldn't, but having talked with her friends, she's the exception that proofs the rule.
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