Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer” • Hacker News Board

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#151

Post by gjolund » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 9:26 PM UTC

Mz wrote: post #138

gjolund wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want to be treated the same as everyone else. Unless I am feeling uncomfortable, and then I want to be treated differently.

I have covered this before: http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2014/01/oh-my-god-it... So I assume you don't actually know me. Because, no, that isn't my position.

I don't know you, but I agree with what you have to say.

2) Talk to people who disagree with me (definitely applies)

3) Engage in polite public hand-slapping (I have benefited from this on occasion)

I have experienced the other side of the coin. I have been in several hiring positions where I was forced to hire more female engineers out of a desire to build a diverse workforce.

I have passed over qualified candidates for unqualified ones in the name of "diversity". To me that is more damaging to the perception of women in tech than anything else, and leads to environments where women in tech are viewed through an adversarial lens.

To me it feels like a one-way conversation, where gender is a trump card that automatically gives one side the right of way.

If it were up to me I wouldn't know a candidates gender until the first day they showed up for work.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#152

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 9:26 PM UTC

houselouse wrote: post #19

> Invite women you work with for coffee No chance of this being misinterpreted. Invite women you work with for coffee and ask what they like or dislike about their day-to-day. If they mention concerns or problems they’re having, ask if there’s any way you could help make it better.

[deleted]

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#153

Post by stale2002 » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 9:27 PM UTC

rimantas wrote: post #118

bonoboTP wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"cup of coffee" is code for date. Plausible deniability and all. There are other ways to talk that are less ambiguous.

Ok, then what's the code for cup of coffee?

"Hey, I'm heading out for coffee in 15, want to join?"

There is a big difference between "lets meet and talk to each other for an hour at the coffee shop on the weekend" and "We are at work, lets take a quick break!"

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#154

Post by tomc1985 » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 9:27 PM UTC

roflc0ptic wrote: post #44

houselouse wrote: post #19

> Invite women you work with for coffee No chance of this being misinterpreted. Invite women you work with for coffee and ask what they like or dislike about their day-to-day. If they mention concerns or problems they’re having, ask if there’s any way you could help make it better.

I'm reading this as sarcastic. While there's some remote chance this could be misinterpreted, there's a remote chance that talking to any woman at all at any point could be misinterpreted as prurient interest. It's sort of a boring point. Realistically, the conversation can go something like "hey, i'm going to the break area for coffee, wanna come?" ... "So how is your work going?" ... "Huh, that sounds ... Anything…

A casual, "Hey I'm going to lunch, care to join?" works well with my colleagues. Usually they decline, to which one can reply, "Ok, have fun. See you in an hour"

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#155

Post by nsxwolf » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 9:27 PM UTC

wrsh07 wrote: post #43

houselouse wrote: post #19

> Invite women you work with for coffee No chance of this being misinterpreted. Invite women you work with for coffee and ask what they like or dislike about their day-to-day. If they mention concerns or problems they’re having, ask if there’s any way you could help make it better.

Ask everyone you work with for coffee. Please don't omit the women. I've mentored new hires, and in that context it's easy to say, "hey can we get tea and talk about how the first few weeks have been?"

My wife would be furious.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#156

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 9:28 PM UTC

enigmango wrote: post #113

MollyR wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. This is bad advice. If the whole team is going, sure, but as a woman this sounds like the setup to a date. Really hope guys reading this article, understand a lot of women are different, and to take what they are saying with a grain of salt.

Please correct me if I'm wrong - I think phrasing the request appropriately is a big part of this, and could mitigate a lot of potential misunderstanding. Something like: "Would you be interested getting coffee sometime?" Definitely sounds like a date setup to me, so framing it as (1) more immediate than a planned date, and (2) work related would be much better. Something more like: "I'm going to grab some coffee in…

[deleted]

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#157

Post by Mz » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 9:28 PM UTC

gjolund wrote: post #151

Mz wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have covered this before: http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2014/01/oh-my-god-it... So I assume you don't actually know me. Because, no, that isn't my position.

I don't know you, but I agree with what you have to say. 2) Talk to people who disagree with me (definitely applies) 3) Engage in polite public hand-slapping (I have benefited from this on occasion) I have experienced the other side of the coin. I have been in several hiring positions where I was forced to hire more female engineers out of a desire to build a diverse workforce. I have passed over qualified candidates…

I am doing what I can to promote better stuff. Though that mostly means blogging and giving my two cents worth in places like HN.

Join me in this diabolical plot. :-)

And have an upvote.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#158

Post by gens » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 9:28 PM UTC

tomc1985 wrote: post #38

The more attention you draw on diversity, the less diversity you receive. Diversity is supposed to be impartial and tolerant, yet it seems the prescribed approach is to carve out separate "spaces" for different feelings and situations. How is this building bridges in the so-called "gender divide"? True diversity is complete and utter impartiality. Why are we focusing on all these useless, pretty, inspirational soluti…

I usually "explain" that to people by writing something like: There are all kinds of idiots. There are male idiots. There are female idiots. There are chinese idiots. There are black idiots. There are slovenian idiots. There are afganistany idiots. There are tall idiots. There are short idiots. There are american idiots. There are white idiots. There are ginger idiots.

And so on till i run out of ideas.

All prejudice are the same. In fact the only actual study i found that shows an actual difference between women and men when it comes to technology is by microsoft and it says that women have better spacial awareness with widescreen while it doesn't matter that much for men.

What i concluded myself is that all this PC crap is dehumanizing people and thus will probably lead to more misery then actual sexism (on average, that is). That partially comes from the fact that most older women like to be called "girl(s)", while the PC people find that derogatory.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#159

Post by Teever » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 9:29 PM UTC

kaitai wrote: post #147

ptaipale wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Will you be believed when you clarify, that's then another thing...

One can't live one's whole life worried about this. When I (female) ask male colleagues etc for informational interviews, work coffee, other meetings, I face the same problem. All you can do is be clear in the first place and exit gracefully if misunderstanding persists. "Hey, I'm really interested in your experience teaching kids how to create GUIs using tkinter. Could I ask you about that over coffee?" If there's a…

The natural conclusion of this train of thought is to never ask someone out for coffee to begin with as the OP was suggesting.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#160

Post by tomc1985 » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 9:30 PM UTC

gens wrote: post #158

tomc1985 wrote: post #38

The more attention you draw on diversity, the less diversity you receive. Diversity is supposed to be impartial and tolerant, yet it seems the prescribed approach is to carve out separate "spaces" for different feelings and situations. How is this building bridges in the so-called "gender divide"? True diversity is complete and utter impartiality. Why are we focusing on all these useless, pretty, inspirational soluti…

I usually "explain" that to people by writing something like: There are all kinds of idiots. There are male idiots. There are female idiots. There are chinese idiots. There are black idiots. There are slovenian idiots. There are afganistany idiots. There are tall idiots. There are short idiots. There are american idiots. There are white idiots. There are ginger idiots. And so on till i run out of ideas. All prejudice…

It makes me wonder if all this nonsense is a conspiracy to continue discriminatory practices ("preserving the boys club") rather than correct them. Lots of people trying way too hard makes me suspicious.