Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer” • Hacker News Board

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#101

Post by hnbroseph » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 7:47 PM UTC

crapolasplatter wrote: post #84

crapolasplatter wrote: post #54

“Ask a Female Engineer” Why leave other important engineering characteristics out? Are you fat,skinny,tall,short,ugly,pretty , white,or black? I really don't see the importance of sex in relations to engineering. Nor understand the desire to get more fat,skinny,tall,short,ugly,pretty , white, black , male or females involved in engineering.

For those that are down voting, care to expand on why? Or perhaps explain why the following characteristics are irrelevant or less important when it comes to engineering: fat,skinny,tall,short,ugly,pretty , white,or black?

i can't downvote but:

> I really don't see the importance of sex in relations to engineering

that expression is too vague to really say anything about. there exist "minority groups" in various fields (such as "male nurses"), and said groups sometimes have distinct life experiences and insights as a result, including their relationship with the "majority group".

> Or perhaps explain why the following characteristics are irrelevant or less important when it comes to engineering

this seems non-sequitur or a strawman. the mere existence of "ask a female engineer" does not necessarily imply anything about other potential "ask a _ engineer" q&a's.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#102

Post by FT_intern » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 7:47 PM UTC

Diversity initiatives for the tech world baffle me. The tech world is already very diverse, along lines that transcend race and gender.

I am talking about national diversity. Engineering teams are composed of a huge percentage of foreign born workers who carry truly diverse experiences. The difference in experience between nationalities completely trumps the differences in experience between gender and race within the same nationality.

Looking for diversity in the form of race and gender is unproductive given the current diversity in the work force. American females have a very similar experience as American males, as do African Americans and White Americans in this context. Americans regardless of race and gender are all part of the same tribe.

The current diversity in the tech world have made in groups almost non-existent. No one nationality has had a large enough share of the engineering population for in groups to form and be problematic.

tldr: Diversity in the form of nationality is prevalent in the tech world. National diversity creates true diversity while gender and race diversity creates insignificant diversity.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#103

Post by gjolund » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 7:50 PM UTC

Here's my question:

"Why do you feel the need to constantly bring up your gender?"

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#104

Post by zamalek » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 7:51 PM UTC

tomc1985 wrote: post #98

zamalek wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that getting women involved in STEM does exactly this: > attacking the mental characteristics that lead to sexist thought It's a forcing function. I really think that the current plan is the most logical approach given the current situation; though, we do need to eventually move away from it. Exactly when is going to be hard to nail down; too soon and everyone will revert to their sexist ways, too late and it…

> I think that getting women involved in STEM does exactly this: > attacking the mental characteristics that lead to sexist thought I agree, but only as long as the end result is the best candidate for the job being hired. Granting special consideration to a group is just as bad as shutting them out.

Exactly:

* It becomes impossible for women to measure their growth. "Did I earn this promotion because of my gender?" As a man I face this reality all the time and it sucks.

* It becomes impossible for society to measure progress in terms of the overall moral compass. "Are people only hiring women because they are forced to?"

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#105

Post by Swizec » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 7:51 PM UTC

danso wrote: post #87

Swizec wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you can have this entire conversation without bringing up that they're a woman Exactly! Talk to them like they're a person. It's not that hard. You'd be surprised how refreshing women find it when you talk to them like they're a person, not a "woman". At least based on what they've told me when I took that approach. Maybe they lied ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ The idea is that you treat them like people, not like a bag of stereotypes…

But people have histories and unsaid feelings and assumptions. It's not uncommon that a woman in a male-dominated field has found that she becomes a magnet for attention, such that anytime a man asks her for some one-on-one time she -- as unfair as it is to that particular man -- can't help but be guarded. And it has nothing to do with what that man, in this particular occasion, decides to say. I think it might be a…

Of course. Singling them out as "Hey you're different and don't belong, let me help you belong" starts you off on the wrong foot.

Treat them like they already belong.

As for it-might-look-like-a-date ... ask them to tag along for your mid-day coffee run. Don't ask them out for coffee on a Friday evening.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#106

Post by Red_Tarsius » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 7:53 PM UTC

houselouse wrote: post #19

> Invite women you work with for coffee No chance of this being misinterpreted. Invite women you work with for coffee and ask what they like or dislike about their day-to-day. If they mention concerns or problems they’re having, ask if there’s any way you could help make it better.

I appreciate the effort put into these interviews, but most of the advice might be a short cut to HR and office drama.

This kid gloves attitude sounds condescending and forced. I don't care about the gender of my peers and that should be enough. Otherwise, you're just expecting a special treatment.

Female peers never had any issue with me. They know my friendliness is genuine, not a political effort.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#107

Post by ewjordan » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 7:54 PM UTC

benclarkwood wrote: post #33

It is good to see YC trying to use its platform to move this discussion forward, but I think that the title of the series is inherently troublesome. Referring to women software engineers as female software engineers is reductive and dehumanizing. Men are not usually referred to as “males”. Frankly, it sounds like a Ferenghi.

That's a bit of a knee-jerk, I think. Men are referred to as "male software engineers", because "men software engineers" sounds absolutely ridiculous.

The asymmetry you're thinking of is when people refer to women as "females" and men as "men". That's a super offensive one, because we usually only use "female" and "male" as nouns when speaking about animals. Better, more specific words exist for humans.

In the current situation, though, "female" is being used as an adjective, which is correct. The only alternative is to (ab)use "woman" as an apposite noun, which sometimes works, but can go terribly wrong as a general rule: "Ask a Man Nurse" vs. "Ask a Male Nurse"

All that said, due to common usage "woman" works as an apposite in many places where "man" does not ("woman president" is fine, "man president" sounds weird).

See http://www.slate.com/blogs/lexicon_valley/2016/02/18/when_yo... for more on all this.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#108

Post by logfromblammo » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 7:58 PM UTC

BinaryIdiot wrote: post #66

redDictionary wrote: post #22

I would like to ask a female engineer some things. 1) do you think there are more men in engineering exclusively as a result of men being prejudiced against women? 2) do you think your male co-workers are less qualified to be engineers because they were hired for their gender? 3) one of the engineers in this article said she felt uncomfortable being aware of being the only female. Can anyone explain what causes the d…

Not a female engineer but I have a perspective on #1. My daughter, who is 5, already has it in her head from kids in her school that boys can do basically anything and girls can't. So she wants to be a boy so she can "do whatever I want". She is only 5 and the girls and boys in her pre-k class were talking about women doing X roles and boys doing A-Z roles. I'm convinced this whole less women in STEM, less women in m…

As much as I would like to teach my kids that women can do anything men can do, I am sorely tempted to lie, and tell them that women can only have careers that will probably not get them killed or maimed, and that will pay them enough to move out of my house before they turn 25.

Sorry kid, you can't be a lumberjack. Or a lumberjill, or whatever. Women are actually so good at being anaesthesiologists, actuaries, corporate IP lawyers, and electronics hardware engineers that there aren't enough left to let any take the dangerous and low-paid jobs. So keep your grades up, girls.

For boys, I'd just have to come up with some other basis for bullshitting them into preparing for the better jobs. ("Sorry, son, but you can't be an oceanic fisherman if your kneecaps are the same size. You're just going to have to become a plastic surgeon if you want to make one of 'em bigger.")

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#109

Post by BinaryIdiot » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 7:59 PM UTC

logfromblammo wrote: post #108

BinaryIdiot wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a female engineer but I have a perspective on #1. My daughter, who is 5, already has it in her head from kids in her school that boys can do basically anything and girls can't. So she wants to be a boy so she can "do whatever I want". She is only 5 and the girls and boys in her pre-k class were talking about women doing X roles and boys doing A-Z roles. I'm convinced this whole less women in STEM, less women in m…

As much as I would like to teach my kids that women can do anything men can do, I am sorely tempted to lie, and tell them that women can only have careers that will probably not get them killed or maimed, and that will pay them enough to move out of my house before they turn 25. Sorry kid, you can't be a lumberjack. Or a lumberjill, or whatever. Women are actually so good at being anaesthesiologists, actuaries, corpo…

Fair enough. I am always tempted to lie about all sorts of things if I think, in the long run, it would help them / keep them alive longer :). Hard balancing that. Parenting is hard!

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#110

Post by hnbroseph » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 8:00 PM UTC

NTDF9 wrote: post #96

hnbroseph wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the point of "ask a female engineer" or "ask a male nurse" is that these are "minority groups" in those respective contexts and have distinct life experiences and insights as a result. > So if one can have "Ask a female athlete", why not "Ask a male athlete". you seem stuck on the "can have" bit, which isn't really the point.

>> you seem stuck on the "can have" bit, which isn't really the point. Ok, so you wouldn't oppose if a man goes and creates a group called, "Ask a brogrammer?" brogrammer = funny slang for male programmers, not meant to offend anyone but to bring male humor to other males

"oppose"? no.

though, to me "brogrammer" is a slightly derogatory term meaning a programmer with an "obnoxious frat guy" personality.