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In Norway, everyone can know how much you earn [video]

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Re: In Norway, everyone can know how much you earn [video]

#141

Post by bjourne »

jomamaxx wrote: post #136
zer0gravity wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't have anything to hide, or you don't want to trick people by paying less then the value they produce, then this kind of system is much better because it promotes honesty and a kind of mutual respect. It may seem strange at first but usually democracy and transparency go hand in hand. Secrets are most of the time the tools of cheaters and liers...

"If you don't have anything to hide, or you don't want to trick people by paying less then the value they produce, then this kind of system is much better because it promotes honesty and a kind of mutual respect. " Why doesn't Sweden force everyone to publish their sexual history? Medical records? Amount of vacation time? It's utterly absurd. Your finances are your private information - unless there is a specific rea…

Because by default, all government data is public. How much you pay in taxes is contained in government data. That's great for transparency, researchers and journalists and makes corruption much harder to get away with.

Only when there is a compelling reason to keep the data secret which outweighs the public interest (such as the identity of a rape victim) is the data kept secret. People being embarrassed by people finding out how much or little they earn isn't a compelling enough reason.

Re: In Norway, everyone can know how much you earn [video]

#142

Post by charlesdm »

kalleboo wrote: post #86
ersii wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, how will they know "if" I'm keeping some of my income undeclared? Remember - this is the DECLARED income that is public.

Snitches. "Oh, he bought a new car? But he only makes XXX a year... I'm gonna report him!"

I can't believe this actually works. In Belgium we have a hotline, and the amount of "snitching" that happens increases YoY. I.e. some guy reports that his neighbour bought a new expensive BMW or Porsche. So they look into it.. and in 99.99% of the cases realise nothing is wrong. Envy is a sad beast..

Just because someone lives a normal life doesn't mean he's not wealthy. I could be living in a normal street/house, making a normal wage, and making €100,000 a year from investment gains. So what? Get over it.

Re: In Norway, everyone can know how much you earn [video]

#143

Post by charlesdm »

bjourne wrote: post #141
jomamaxx wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If you don't have anything to hide, or you don't want to trick people by paying less then the value they produce, then this kind of system is much better because it promotes honesty and a kind of mutual respect. " Why doesn't Sweden force everyone to publish their sexual history? Medical records? Amount of vacation time? It's utterly absurd. Your finances are your private information - unless there is a specific rea…

Because by default, all government data is public. How much you pay in taxes is contained in government data. That's great for transparency, researchers and journalists and makes corruption much harder to get away with. Only when there is a compelling reason to keep the data secret which outweighs the public interest (such as the identity of a rape victim) is the data kept secret. People being embarrassed by people f…

> That's great for transparency, researchers and journalists and makes corruption much harder to get away with.

So, I think in this case, "transparency", "researchers" and "journalists" are all highly irrelevant.

1. Journalists shouldn't write articles about how person X makes €Xm a year. The friend of my cousins husband was abducted when he was a kid, because the press kept writing articles about how wealthy his family was. Why? Just because they could sell a few newspapers. Despicable.

2. Researchers: the data could easily be anonymized.

3. Transparency. Why? Just because you say everything else is public isn't a valid reason (to me). It's not like you have a choice. Are you OK with a list of all of your assets being public? Every property you own, globally? The exact amount of money on your bank account? How about your medical history, so insurers can easily determine how healthy / sick you are? Or your sexual preference?

4. Corruption: BS. I would seriously doubt people would be stupid enough to receive “dirty" money and then declare it to the tax authority. And if they were, they'd probably route it through a company as consulting fees or something.. Be realistic, please.

Re: In Norway, everyone can know how much you earn [video]

#144

Post by charlesdm »

Hermel wrote: post #66
charlesdm wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't sound like a fun story at all, actually. I honestly don't see what kind of good could come from disclosing tax returns publicly..

Social control. When everyone is watching, not properly declaring your income is much more risky.

The only advantage I could see is _PERHAPS_ combating excessive legal tax avoidance. But I doubt the people focusing on significant avoidance care enough to pay more, just to show off some sort of status. I know I wouldn't care enough to pay more.

Re: In Norway, everyone can know how much you earn [video]

#145

Post by Numberwang »

jomamaxx wrote: post #140
Numberwang wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see human rights coming down either side of the argument here. It's about what type of society you want to live in. Scandinavia tend to want to identify as a more social culture whereas others will want an individual based society. I think the one word someone from the outside should take with them about Scandinavia is "relax". Most things like these matter less than you think.

Why don't you tell Chinese citizens who have government control their online behaviour 'for the purposes of social betterment' to 'relax'? "Scandinavia tend to want to identify as a more social culture whereas others will want an individual based society." Why do you speak for 100% of Scandinavians? How about the large portion of those who want nothing to do with this law? Shouldn't they be able to opt out? Let those…

We have something called democracy going on up north. We decide our laws by vote. So those that are on the losing side of an issue will just have to live with it until laws change. Similarly to how various restrictions apply to drugs in the US.

Re: In Norway, everyone can know how much you earn [video]

#146

Post by jellicle »

dmoy wrote: post #109
jellicle wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reduces gender discrimination; reduces race discrimination; reduces income inequality; allows employees to make sure they are being paid fairly for their skills; reduces tax evasion; increases trust in the system. No doubt there are more that don't come to mind immediately.

I'm not sure it reduces race discrimination in Sweden. It's not as blatantly in your face, but it still affects people greatly.

Reduces, not eliminates.

Presumably it is quite easy for employees to establish, for example, that all black employees at a company are poorly-paid compared to similar white employees. This makes redress possible. In the U.S. it is quite difficult to establish that, even if one has a strong suspicion that it is true, and so redress is rare.

Re: In Norway, everyone can know how much you earn [video]

#147

Post by charlesdm »

patmcc wrote: post #88
ersii wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, how will they know "if" I'm keeping some of my income undeclared? Remember - this is the DECLARED income that is public.

If you have a porsche but only make $15k a year (or whatever), that's a good indication you're not declaring everything.

You could have inherited $1m five years ago, though.

Re: In Norway, everyone can know how much you earn [video]

#148

Post by bjourne »

charlesdm wrote: post #143
bjourne wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because by default, all government data is public. How much you pay in taxes is contained in government data. That's great for transparency, researchers and journalists and makes corruption much harder to get away with. Only when there is a compelling reason to keep the data secret which outweighs the public interest (such as the identity of a rape victim) is the data kept secret. People being embarrassed by people f…

> That's great for transparency, researchers and journalists and makes corruption much harder to get away with. So, I think in this case, "transparency", "researchers" and "journalists" are all highly irrelevant. 1. Journalists shouldn't write articles about how person X makes €Xm a year. The friend of my cousins husband was abducted when he was a kid, because the press kept writing articles about how wealthy his fam…

> 1. Journalists shouldn't write articles about how person X makes €Xm a year.

I disagree. If some CEO says that workers salaries are too high and he himself increased his salary by 50% the last year, that is important for journalists to write about.

> 2. Researchers: the data could easily be anonymized.

Researches are interested in seeing how different variables correlate with salary. Like gender, age, education level, parents social status and so on. Those correlations can't be made on anonymized data.

> 3. Transparency. Why? Just because you say everything else is public isn't a valid reason (to me).

You misunderstand. Transparency is about the government being transparent with it's data, not about ME being transparent. I'm allowed to keep as many secrets as I want -- the government is not. For example if the government had records on my sexual preference or political affiliation, I for sure would prefer if that data was public and not kept secret.

> 4. Corruption: BS. I would seriously doubt people would be stupid enough to receive “dirty" money and then declare it to the tax authority.

A lot of corruption involves one party "gifting" the other something. That kind of corruption has been caught by the tax authority.

Re: In Norway, everyone can know how much you earn [video]

#149

Post by Zitrax »

charlesdm wrote: post #147
patmcc wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have a porsche but only make $15k a year (or whatever), that's a good indication you're not declaring everything.

You could have inherited $1m five years ago, though.

The data in Norway does not only include your income but also your fortune.

Re: In Norway, everyone can know how much you earn [video]

#150

Post by PunchTornado »

lord_harrington wrote: post #47
PunchTornado wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

not reliable. a lot of my friends were saying they were earning much more than were really making. made me depressed for quit a while. then I got a wonderful job as a data admin for an intelligence institution and for a few days when certain maintenance was due I had unlimited access to everyone's earning in my country. THE LIES! I always have issues negotiating my wage so knowing what other people are earning would…

did you try using your newfound powers for science as well? wage gap numbers are presumably drawn from smaller numbers in countries without public tax returns, actually computing this nationwide would be amazing

I could just execute individual queries and fake them as tests unfortunately. I did it only for friends and public figures. But I think what you are saying is done by other institutions in most countries. I regularly see our national statistics institute releasing studies about gender pay gap etc.
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