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In Norway, everyone can know how much you earn [video]

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Re: In Norway, everyone can know how much you earn [video]

#131
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would recommend you to research this a bit more, if you decide to have a children. Problem are not 'strict laws', but the way there are applied. One single accusation can remove your children, you have no right to even talk to a lawyer and maybe in 6 years you will get some sort of appeal. Sources are all over internet, Norway is only country with this problem, just google it.

The stuff you are citing, btw, is basically an accepted conspiracy theory as well. The problem is that it really isn't the truth as you are stating it.

You don't seem to be aware of it, but the Norwegian model is frequently criticised as being too severe.

There's probably some court case about to happen to protect the rights of children because the Norwegian model is too severe.

Here's one example of international concern about the severity of the system: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-36026458

Those parents hit their children, and so the parents need punishment for that bit of abuse, and the children need to be protected, but that protection should not be removal from the family because that's a significant interference with the rights of the child.

Re: In Norway, everyone can know how much you earn [video]

#133
This is a serious transgression of privacy and human rights.

There is utterly no reason why most people should not most other people's income.

Unless they are public reps, or have government dealings - or there is some kind of 'public good' - than this is basically an abuse of human rights.

Why not make people's bank account statements or health records public?

Re: In Norway, everyone can know how much you earn [video]

#134
I'd say it's a bad thing: a lot of consumption is a result of people's desire to show off. When everyone knows who makes what anyway, trying to show off will be stupid, so that activity will stop - severely hitting consumption, business revenues, profits, and the economy in general, probably resulting in a vicious cycle as people's incomes will be hit by bad business.

Scandinavia may be exception from that because showing off isn't in their mentality anyway, so benefits (main of which is that more and more reliable information makes things better for economic agents) outweigh disadvantages. Not going to work well for most other countries.

Re: In Norway, everyone can know how much you earn [video]

#135
You guys might be intererested in the Swedish site lexbase.se. They asked the courts for five years of records, cross-ran them with the population registration and presented the data using a search prompt taking a name or address as search terms.

This is normally illegal as it violates some integrity laws, but it is ok under current legislation if you have a "utgivningsbevis", something you need to register for to use your freedom of speech in published writing.

The site was poorly built and their full database was leaked nearly instantly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexbase

Re: In Norway, everyone can know how much you earn [video]

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't sound like a fun story at all, actually. I honestly don't see what kind of good could come from disclosing tax returns publicly..

If you don't have anything to hide, or you don't want to trick people by paying less then the value they produce, then this kind of system is much better because it promotes honesty and a kind of mutual respect. It may seem strange at first but usually democracy and transparency go hand in hand. Secrets are most of the time the tools of cheaters and liers...

"If you don't have anything to hide, or you don't want to trick people by paying less then the value they produce, then this kind of system is much better because it promotes honesty and a kind of mutual respect. "

Why doesn't Sweden force everyone to publish their sexual history? Medical records? Amount of vacation time?

It's utterly absurd.

Your finances are your private information - unless there is a specific reason - it should be private.

This is a serious transgression of human rights.

Re: In Norway, everyone can know how much you earn [video]

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't sound like a fun story at all, actually. I honestly don't see what kind of good could come from disclosing tax returns publicly..

Reduces gender discrimination; reduces race discrimination; reduces income inequality; allows employees to make sure they are being paid fairly for their skills; reduces tax evasion; increases trust in the system. No doubt there are more that don't come to mind immediately.

I'm not sure any of those things are true - and there are far better options for addressing those things.

Why don't you just force everyone to put their bank account statements online?

Privacy is a fundamental human right.

Re: In Norway, everyone can know how much you earn [video]

#138

This is a serious transgression of privacy and human rights. There is utterly no reason why most people should not most other people's income. Unless they are public reps, or have government dealings - or there is some kind of 'public good' - than this is basically an abuse of human rights. Why not make people's bank account statements or health records public?

I don't see human rights coming down either side of the argument here. It's about what type of society you want to live in. Scandinavia tend to want to identify as a more social culture whereas others will want an individual based society.

I think the one word someone from the outside should take with them about Scandinavia is "relax". Most things like these matter less than you think.

Re: In Norway, everyone can know how much you earn [video]

#139

I really wish that someone who is really opposed to salary-transparency would do a comprehensive pro- vs con- analysis of the issue, displaying that they truly understand all the arguments for. A lot of the opposition seems so glib and content with the status quo, showing very little charity to the idea, often based on very contrived scenarios, or on the failure of isolated one-off efforts (one factory switched, this…

" Easier to negotiate against big entities like HR as a "little guy" because you have similar info to them (which they pay for)."

This if upside down - in fact - it will reinforce class.

Do you know why your employer may ask in an interview: 'How much did you earn before'? Because they know if they offer you a little bit more than before, you'll probably take it - even if it's 'under market wages'.

Someone who earns very little can be held to that lower income, and there's also a social stigma to it: if you're a low-income earner - you will be judged as less valuable than high income earners.

People will judge the value of people by how much they earn - making it very difficult for working class people or students to move up.

Also - it's a deep transgression of human rights. Your finances are your private information, nobody should have the right to see them unless there is a case for 'public good' i.e. public officials etc.

Also - your idea of libertarian in this case is a little upside down - this is the opposite of classical liberalism. It's massive government overreach. Classical liberals would be very weary of having the government interfere in one's private life.

By your logic - your bank account, your investments, land holdings etc. etc. could feasibly be public knowledge.

All of those supposed 'good things' are intangible - there's no evidence they will happen (or are good). It's classic socialist folly: a 'do gooder idea that really is just more state control.

I have no doubt that in some cases, income could be public information - for example, state officials should have to publish certain kinds of information - especially stock ownership and business contracts so that we can ward off corruption.

But in general, we should be deferring to privacy.

Re: In Norway, everyone can know how much you earn [video]

#140

This is a serious transgression of privacy and human rights. There is utterly no reason why most people should not most other people's income. Unless they are public reps, or have government dealings - or there is some kind of 'public good' - than this is basically an abuse of human rights. Why not make people's bank account statements or health records public?

I don't see human rights coming down either side of the argument here. It's about what type of society you want to live in. Scandinavia tend to want to identify as a more social culture whereas others will want an individual based society. I think the one word someone from the outside should take with them about Scandinavia is "relax". Most things like these matter less than you think.

Why don't you tell Chinese citizens who have government control their online behaviour 'for the purposes of social betterment' to 'relax'?

"Scandinavia tend to want to identify as a more social culture whereas others will want an individual based society."

Why do you speak for 100% of Scandinavians? How about the large portion of those who want nothing to do with this law? Shouldn't they be able to opt out? Let those who want to 'be social' (as you say it) publish their information online. The rest can have their basic rights to privacy protected.

While I agree that it's probably not a huge deal overall - it is definitely a issue of rights and privacy, and a fairly serious one.

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