In Norway, everyone can know how much you earn [video] • Hacker News Board

Re: In Norway, everyone can know how much you earn [video]

#111

Post by danso » Sun, Sep 04, 2016, 5:23 PM UTC

lettergram wrote: post #70

ginko wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When would that be the case? When you have another job on the side? How is that your employer's business?

Personally, (I'm less than 25) I make about 75% of my income from the company I work at, the other 25% doing odd jobs, websites, etc. That latter percentage is probably increasing every month too. I can't imagine the company I work at being super excited I'm (for example) doing code reviews; or running a website. Technically, I don't have a clause in my contract forbidding me from doing external work, so long as I gi…

Why do you feel justified in assuming what your company would think? And how do you justify working at such a place with the kind of corporate moral code that would punish employees for behavior not defined in the employment contract?

There are plenty of scenarios in which an employer believes that they deserve to know how their employee conducts themselves outside of work, including other jobs, and in those scenarios, this should be specified in the contract. In the news business, working for someone who might intersect with your beat, e.g. making phone calls for the local chapter of Democrats if you're covering politics, will often result in a severe reprimand if not firing. If you want to be a schoolteacher, you can be fired for having worked in porn, even if those days are over. [0]

[0] http://www.cbsnews.com/news/stacie-halas-fired-calif-teacher...

Re: In Norway, everyone can know how much you earn [video]

#112

Post by reitanqild » Sun, Sep 04, 2016, 5:26 PM UTC

danso wrote: post #104

reitanqild wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Norway is crazy but sweet. Edit: In fact salaries used to be even more public, printed out and left in public for review.

What is it now? I'm guessing it's not on the web, which would be vastly more public than in printed form?

Yep, but now whoever you check will receive a notice about who checked their salary.

So basically nobody does anymore which is a shame in some ways.

OTOH: Keeping everything wide open with no audit in the time of Internet and free access for East European criminals maybe wasn't the right way either. (E.g. you could plan a raid on rich old people based on electronically searchable archives.)

Re: In Norway, everyone can know how much you earn [video]

#113

Post by RodericDay » Sun, Sep 04, 2016, 5:28 PM UTC

I really wish that someone who is really opposed to salary-transparency would do a comprehensive pro- vs con- analysis of the issue, displaying that they truly understand all the arguments for. A lot of the opposition seems so glib and content with the status quo, showing very little charity to the idea, often based on very contrived scenarios, or on the failure of isolated one-off efforts (one factory switched, this happened...).

Yes, it's true, you lose some privacy and there's weird stalking scenarios that could occur. However, on a social level, the positive mass externalities seem huge:

- Fundamentally hardcore pro-market: More information makes for better economic agents. Full stop.

- Undermine the status arms-race to display wealth.

- Immediate career education for all kids everywhere. No more "wow I didn't know x job paid y", it's all out there in the open.

- Easier to negotiate against big entities like HR as a "little guy" because you have similar info to them (which they pay for).

- Less race/sex/etc based discrimination.

- Bosses cannot ask workers to tighten their belts without also tightening their own.

- Allow people to tie vague concepts ("how are teachers valued by society?") to real, meaningful personal experiences ("George is a great teacher and making a pittance compared to Greg the salesman!")

I don't know. I'm totally into the idea. It seems like a thing that both hardcore free-market libertarians and left-wing people pining for the proletariat or w/e could both readily agree upon and promote together. The bulk of the opposition seems to be a fear of what could be done with the information, but the information is basically all out there already, in the hands of the people who already have a lot of power. Your boss drives a nicer car than you, and his boss an even nicer one. This would just let you actually do math with the numbers and calculate whether you want to shop around for jobs, rather than stay stuck with a vague impression.

Re: In Norway, everyone can know how much you earn [video]

#114

Post by danso » Sun, Sep 04, 2016, 5:39 PM UTC

reitanqild wrote: post #112

danso wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is it now? I'm guessing it's not on the web, which would be vastly more public than in printed form?

Yep, but now whoever you check will receive a notice about who checked their salary. So basically nobody does anymore which is a shame in some ways. OTOH: Keeping everything wide open with no audit in the time of Internet and free access for East European criminals maybe wasn't the right way either. (E.g. you could plan a raid on rich old people based on electronically searchable archives.)

Ha. That just reminded me of how I'm on a Texas gov page titled "Sex Offender Registry Export" because I once requested their sex offender database for academic research: https://records.txdps.state.tx.us/SexOffender/PublicSite/App...

I don't mind since my name is so common, but I emailed the Texas agency that they should put a noindex tag to prevent the page from being used against people with less common names (you can register for the registry via what appears to be a system lacking verification).

Re: In Norway, everyone can know how much you earn [video]

#115

Post by sidlls » Sun, Sep 04, 2016, 5:42 PM UTC

RodericDay wrote: post #97

wyager wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>How is that your employer's business? Exactly. That's why public income info is a bad idea.

Public income info means it is much much easier to negotiate against HR. You know exactly how much x or y makes given a or b. This is info that HR has, because they pay for it. If it was public, you'd have it too. Your bosses also would not be allowed to guilt-trip you into foregoing a raise without them taking on a comparable part of the burden. Salary secrecy seems like a quintessentially american thing, completely…

Salary transparency is different from tax and income transparency, though.

I agree that salary information should be more public. I'm not so sure individual income or other tax information should be.

Re: In Norway, everyone can know how much you earn [video]

#116

Post by Broken_Hippo » Sun, Sep 04, 2016, 5:46 PM UTC

jkot wrote: post #99

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an immigrant in Norway. I do not have children, but have heard the stories. I used to hear some of the same stories in the American system, which also tends to not release details to protect the children. Norway has strict laws about children and children have rights. These laws aren't bent because one is from another culture and living here. For example, physical punishment is pretty common in the US, but it is…

I would recommend you to research this a bit more, if you decide to have a children. Problem are not 'strict laws', but the way there are applied. One single accusation can remove your children, you have no right to even talk to a lawyer and maybe in 6 years you will get some sort of appeal. Sources are all over internet, Norway is only country with this problem, just google it.

The thing is, I've not seen it. I've known a few immigrants, one from Poland, that has had them called. One had observation and classes, the other nothing. I'm not saying that any of it is perfect, as it isn't that anywhere, but what you are saying isn't either.

Re: In Norway, everyone can know how much you earn [video]

#117

Post by lervag » Sun, Sep 04, 2016, 5:50 PM UTC

I think it is important to note that you can only see the amount of tax payed, not the actual income. This obviously correlates with strongly with income, but there are a lot of factors that affect the amount of tax payed. Person A and B with the same income might pay a very different amount of taxes.

As others have also noted, if I wanted to learn the income of a fellow Norwegian, he would be notified that I had requested this info. This prevents a lot of snooping. I would suspect newspapers and magazines to be among those who request income information the most, and then typically they request information about the wealthiest and most powerful.

Re: In Norway, everyone can know how much you earn [video]

#118

Post by Broken_Hippo » Sun, Sep 04, 2016, 5:51 PM UTC

jkot wrote: post #99

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an immigrant in Norway. I do not have children, but have heard the stories. I used to hear some of the same stories in the American system, which also tends to not release details to protect the children. Norway has strict laws about children and children have rights. These laws aren't bent because one is from another culture and living here. For example, physical punishment is pretty common in the US, but it is…

I would recommend you to research this a bit more, if you decide to have a children. Problem are not 'strict laws', but the way there are applied. One single accusation can remove your children, you have no right to even talk to a lawyer and maybe in 6 years you will get some sort of appeal. Sources are all over internet, Norway is only country with this problem, just google it.

The stuff you are citing, btw, is basically an accepted conspiracy theory as well. The problem is that it really isn't the truth as you are stating it.

Re: In Norway, everyone can know how much you earn [video]

#119

Post by jkot » Sun, Sep 04, 2016, 5:53 PM UTC

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #116

jkot wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would recommend you to research this a bit more, if you decide to have a children. Problem are not 'strict laws', but the way there are applied. One single accusation can remove your children, you have no right to even talk to a lawyer and maybe in 6 years you will get some sort of appeal. Sources are all over internet, Norway is only country with this problem, just google it.

The thing is, I've not seen it. I've known a few immigrants, one from Poland, that has had them called. One had observation and classes, the other nothing. I'm not saying that any of it is perfect, as it isn't that anywhere, but what you are saying isn't either.

I think we are on a different planets.

I just told you parent is not even allowed to talk to a lawyer, if such thing happens and escalates.

Re: In Norway, everyone can know how much you earn [video]

#120

Post by henrikschroder » Sun, Sep 04, 2016, 5:54 PM UTC

ivoras wrote: post #71

Tharkun wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you considered the alternative approach of talking to people? A lot less creepy than cyber stalking their tax reports.

From my experience, this is one case where both sides are entrenched and refuse to accept the logic of the other side. Same as the "prices should be stated with taxes included or not" debate. Good luck with that in the US. And with the metric system. And in other countries, driving on the left side of the road. It's culture, not logic.

> prices should be stated with taxes included or not

In the US, sales tax differs wildly from state to state, and even from city to city. If you always had to include tax, you couldn't have any TV commercials where a company boasts about their price on something they sell, because it would be impossible to know how high the sales tax would be for every person watching.

Places where tax always has to be included usually has a national sales tax or similar, making it possible to advertise prices with tax included.