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The Internet Should Be a Public Good

jacobinmag.com

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Re: The Internet Should Be a Public Good

#81

Post by orthecreedence »

wyager wrote: post #76
wfo wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Internet is a public good -> regulatory powers are voted on and enacted by public bodies who are transparent and can be voted out. Internet is a private good -> a tiny group of unelectable, unaccountable corporate leaders decide in secret everything about how it works, and are ethically required to make decisions which are bad for you and me but good for their profits.

Ironically, government regulation tends to work more like your second example. You are also objectively wrong; the FCC, the primary Internet regulator, is not voted in and is in no way transparent. It's also good for profits to be less proscriptive than one's competitors. There is no discernible reason that competing ISPs would choose to limit free speech of their own accord.

> and is in no way transparent

They are pretty fucking transparent. And they are still a public regulatory body, appointed by people appointed by the public.

> There is no discernible reason that competing ISPs would choose to limit free speech of their own accord.

Unless that ISP wants to create a streaming video service. So they block access to Netflix so you can "enjoy" their video service as well. If you want the internet to be run the way cable service is, then great, good for you. But the rest of us enjoy the freedom of being able to access any resource connected to the network for one price.

> So switch ISPs

(You'd inevitably bring it up)...most ISPs are a monopoly so there goes that idea.

Re: The Internet Should Be a Public Good

#82

Post by borkborkbork »

tptacek wrote: post #80
borkborkbork wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm actually enjoying this conversation. That's why I've stuck around this long. To quote your last comment: "What they do instead is impose regulatory frameworks that forbid companies that could run gig fiber networks from doing so unless they also serve markets where they would hemorrhage money." Who cares if they're hemorrhaging money? The Public Works Administration hemorrhaged money electrifying the South. The P…

You don't even seem to be reading my comments anymore. You've invented a disagreement that we don't even have, so you could reintroduce politics. I'm not interested in having a political argument with you. Incidentally, you may be chuckling at the tenor of this conversation and where it's going, but as I've told you repeatedly, I am taking offense. I am not enjoying it, and I wish you'd stop.

Welp, maybe you shouldn't have commented on a political article then? I'm really not trolling you here. I'm reading everything you're writing.

I suspect others will notice that it is you who have been ignoring me.

This is my biggest problem with people in the tech industry. You can't divorce the systems you build, or the tradeoffs made by companies and policymakers, from the underlying political ideologies that inform those decisions.

Re: The Internet Should Be a Public Good

#83

Post by [deleted] »

tptacek wrote: post #80
borkborkbork wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm actually enjoying this conversation. That's why I've stuck around this long. To quote your last comment: "What they do instead is impose regulatory frameworks that forbid companies that could run gig fiber networks from doing so unless they also serve markets where they would hemorrhage money." Who cares if they're hemorrhaging money? The Public Works Administration hemorrhaged money electrifying the South. The P…

You don't even seem to be reading my comments anymore. You've invented a disagreement that we don't even have, so you could reintroduce politics. I'm not interested in having a political argument with you. Incidentally, you may be chuckling at the tenor of this conversation and where it's going, but as I've told you repeatedly, I am taking offense. I am not enjoying it, and I wish you'd stop.

[deleted]

Re: The Internet Should Be a Public Good

#84

Post by EliRivers »

tptacek wrote: post #55
dublinben wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would love if my internet service was as good as my gas or electric service. Those are both so reliable, that I've never once had to contact customer service. They deliver a standard level of service, according to fair, legally enforced rates. If they ever do have an outage, I'm entitled to pro-rated credits for the service interruption. They will also roll trucks any hour of the day to restore service after major…

You have much better experience with your utilities than I do with mine. Two days ago, we found out that our gas had been shut off because Nicor's billing system forgot about our auto-billing. Someone came out, shut our gas off, and locked the meter. We paid them, and they informed us they wouldn't be able to roll a truck to turn our gas on for more than a week, despite the fact that the dude they sent to turn our ga…

"Have you ever called to have your electrical service changed? How was that experience for you? I've had that pleasure, too."

I've done this. It's something the UK seems to be really good at. I checked my annual usage and found the supplier who would charge me the least for that. So I phoned them. That was all I had to do. My bills went down. Fantastic. The UK government seems to be enforcing a competitive market, and I am no fan of the UK government, so this is high praise from me.

Re: The Internet Should Be a Public Good

#85

Post by throwanem »

borkborkbork wrote: post #82
tptacek wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't even seem to be reading my comments anymore. You've invented a disagreement that we don't even have, so you could reintroduce politics. I'm not interested in having a political argument with you. Incidentally, you may be chuckling at the tenor of this conversation and where it's going, but as I've told you repeatedly, I am taking offense. I am not enjoying it, and I wish you'd stop.

Welp, maybe you shouldn't have commented on a political article then? I'm really not trolling you here. I'm reading everything you're writing. I suspect others will notice that it is you who have been ignoring me. This is my biggest problem with people in the tech industry. You can't divorce the systems you build, or the tradeoffs made by companies and policymakers, from the underlying political ideologies that infor…

You might be surprised and deeply dissatisfied what others will notice.

Re: The Internet Should Be a Public Good

#86

Post by tptacek »

EliRivers wrote: post #84
tptacek wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have much better experience with your utilities than I do with mine. Two days ago, we found out that our gas had been shut off because Nicor's billing system forgot about our auto-billing. Someone came out, shut our gas off, and locked the meter. We paid them, and they informed us they wouldn't be able to roll a truck to turn our gas on for more than a week, despite the fact that the dude they sent to turn our ga…

"Have you ever called to have your electrical service changed? How was that experience for you? I've had that pleasure, too." I've done this. It's something the UK seems to be really good at. I checked my annual usage and found the supplier who would charge me the least for that. So I phoned them. That was all I had to do. My bills went down. Fantastic. The UK government seems to be enforcing a competitive market, an…

Have you tried to have your electrical provider terminate additional power to your house? That's the kind of change I'm talking about.

Re: The Internet Should Be a Public Good

#87

Post by wonder_er »

wfo wrote: post #54
wonder_er wrote: post #27

From the article: > It’s precisely the insulation from market forces that enables government to finance the long-term scientific labor that ends up producing many of the most profitable inventions. It's this insulation that allows the government to waste billions and trillions on everything. Innovation requires smart people and money. Neither of which the government can provide except by taking from the population as…

Sure, I'd characterize the creation of the internet as a "waste" as well, I say while typing a message on it. Similarly the social security and medicare that allows our grandparents to continue to live without bankrupting us, or forcing us to watch them die. Similarly the healthcare that stops poor people from dying on the street or robbing/killing you and your family out of desperation, and the police that protect y…

> Almost all valuable research cannot be supported by a profit motive

I disagree entirely. Only a profit motive can support valuable research.

We obviously see the world differently, but would probably get along just great if we were spending time together, so - help me understand your perspectives a bit better.

What book or author would you recommend, who makes a strong case for your point of view? I'll give it a read.

Thanks!

Re: The Internet Should Be a Public Good

#88

Post by [deleted] »

tptacek wrote: post #10

This rosey view of the public-funded Internet ignores the reality of the network at the time. As recently as the mid-1990s, the entire Internet could netsplit , like a badly-run IRC network; there was a run of a couple days where commercial sites (like Ripco, my first ISP) couldn't reach any .EDU sites. Telecom companies like Comcast and Verizon "own" the backbone because they built it. Not just the backhaul connecti…

[deleted]

Re: The Internet Should Be a Public Good

#89

Post by falcolas »

wyager wrote: post #77
falcolas wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As compared to a private company claiming regulatory powers with no oversight? If Facebook owns the internet, Facebook decides what is on the internet. If icann owns domain registration with no regulation, icann decides who gets a domain (as well as the power to strip domains from their current owners). And who can stop them? Some other company offering competing root DNS servers? I don't see how that could ever work…

Why in the world do you think DNS is the issue? If you're worried about that, look at Namecoin. This is a solved problem. The issue is that the government, given sufficient regulatory power, will start doing things like banning porn or "extreme" political views. This is not hypothetical; it has already happened in the UK.

Let me paraphrase your own comment in response.

The issue is that the corporations, given no regulation, will start doing things like banning porn or "extreme" political views. This is not hypothetical; it has already happened on Facebook.

Censorship is not purely the domain of the government. At least there are checks and balances on a government's power (as ineffectual and slow as they may be); save for the morals of a company's leadership team, there are no checks or balances on a corporations actions without regulation.

> look at Namecoin. This is a solved problem.

Most excellent. How do I give my mother a namecoin domain and have her visit their webpages? If it involves "download X from namecoin.org", you're already in trouble, since that's already relying on DNS. If we get past that, and the namecoin wallet needs to bootstrap itself - does it also use DNS? If it involves changing system configurations, period, it also won't work, since I've taught my mother to never to do that (she lacks the technical knowledge to add nuance to the restriction).

Re: The Internet Should Be a Public Good

#90

Post by dtornabene »

tptacek wrote: post #59
borkborkbork wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not my argument. Publicly funded does not necessarily mean primarily academic. The market is not the only driver of public demand for goods and services. Streaming video is a fairly obvious innovation that benefits the general public.

I'm sure if the government had retained full control of the Internet as a regulated public utility, the US would have the finest Department of Streaming Video in the world.

Why is this any different than the previous upthread comments you called "rude" and labeled with Forum Psych 101 : Fallacy Section. Its kind of ugly, honestly. I say this as someone who has actually taken the time to email you before, thanking you for calling out racism.
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