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The Internet Should Be a Public Good

jacobinmag.com

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Re: The Internet Should Be a Public Good

#41

Post by tptacek »

borkborkbork wrote: post #37
toss1941 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's saying the task to deploy ISDN in the 1990's was minuscule compared to what is required to roll out fiber to everyone today. It's like comparing government oranges to private Teslas.

Government has been responsible for the largest undertakings in human history. Space flight, nuclear weaponry and energy, particle colliders, etc.

That's mostly true. It's just that the modern Internet isn't one of those things, unless you're talking about the academic research funding that generated Raj Jain papers.

Re: The Internet Should Be a Public Good

#42

Post by throwanem »

borkborkbork wrote: post #29
tptacek wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want your Internet service to be as responsive to customers as your gas and electric service is today, I supposed you could declare the experiment "failed". As I pointed out, I'm happier with an Internet I can watch movies and make phone calls on than I am with the one that repeatedly netsplit in the 90s. Incidentally: ISDN was widely available everywhere where there were modern phone-switching networks, becau…

Comparing the internet you have in 2016 to the internet that existed in the 1990's is a bit unfair, don't you think? The idea that only markets are capable of delivering innovations or necessary services to the public is debatable. For example, the U.S. government, through DARPA, created countless valuable networking innovations that private companies, such as AT&T, didn't want to touch even when given the opportunit…

> Comparing the internet you have in 2016 to the internet that existed in the 1990's is a bit unfair, don't you think?

I certainly do! It astonishes me that the article here under discussion treats them so.

Re: The Internet Should Be a Public Good

#43

Post by borkborkbork »

tptacek wrote: post #41
borkborkbork wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Government has been responsible for the largest undertakings in human history. Space flight, nuclear weaponry and energy, particle colliders, etc.

That's mostly true. It's just that the modern Internet isn't one of those things, unless you're talking about the academic research funding that generated Raj Jain papers.

You're right, it's not. But it could have been.

Re: The Internet Should Be a Public Good

#44

Post by jomamaxx »

badsock wrote: post #13
okket wrote: post #2

Most relevant Internet bodies are noncommercial organisations, like ICANN, IETF, RIPE, ARIN, APNIC, AFNIC, LACNIC, the various Internet exchanges (xxCIX), some DNS registrars are noncommercial too. But someone has to run the actual cables, manage customers, host servers, etc. I'd say the Internet has a very good balance between commercial interests and the noncommercial "public good". So good in fact, that some very…

In BC, Canada the provision of electricity and water are by provincial/municipal governments, have very similiar requirements in terms of running wires/pipes, and in my experience have delivered much better services. They don't constantly try to gouge me. I've had to call their support lines maybe a few times my entire life (as opposed to many tens of times for telcos). And I really don't see how sending bits could b…

"In BC, Canada the provision of electricity and water are by provincial/municipal governments, have very similiar requirements in terms of running wires/pipes, and in my experience have delivered much better services."

The internet is not 'electricity'.

The internet evolves rapidly over time, there are competing technologies etc.

My friend, the Province of 'British Colombia' delivers some of the worst healthcare in the Western world - and they don't even have your records online. How do you expect they will manage bleeding edge technology?

Also - you are gouged on pricing. Have you seen your electricity bill? In Ontario, we pay artificially inflated fees. The government subsidizes irresponsible solar installations to the tune of 85 cents / kwh. They charge massive 'transport' fees. Hydro One is a massively bloated public entity with masses of retired people earning $100K a year from age 55 onwards. Have a look at their staffing budget - it's downright scandalous.

I'm not saying that electricity should be entirely privatized, but the internet, at least for now, should probably be.

Unless there is a big 'build out' (such as they have done in China or S. Korea) - I don't see government taking a direct role, other than perhaps regulation, and sponsoring access to rural communities and the poor.

Re: The Internet Should Be a Public Good

#45

Post by borkborkbork »

throwanem wrote: post #42
borkborkbork wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comparing the internet you have in 2016 to the internet that existed in the 1990's is a bit unfair, don't you think? The idea that only markets are capable of delivering innovations or necessary services to the public is debatable. For example, the U.S. government, through DARPA, created countless valuable networking innovations that private companies, such as AT&T, didn't want to touch even when given the opportunit…

> Comparing the internet you have in 2016 to the internet that existed in the 1990's is a bit unfair, don't you think? I certainly do! It astonishes me that the article here under discussion treats them so.

How so?

Re: The Internet Should Be a Public Good

#46

Post by tptacek »

borkborkbork wrote: post #43
tptacek wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's mostly true. It's just that the modern Internet isn't one of those things, unless you're talking about the academic research funding that generated Raj Jain papers.

You're right, it's not. But it could have been.

There is very little evidence to suggest it would be. A space program is a monumentally impressive achievement, but it's one that was generated by fiat. The Internet is the result of countless different responses to market pressures.

Our telecom networks used to be effectively nationalized. You couldn't even choose your own telephone. Back when the government had a role in running the actual backbone, there were restrictions on commerce on the Internet!

Re: The Internet Should Be a Public Good

#48

Post by throwanem »

borkborkbork wrote: post #45
throwanem wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Comparing the internet you have in 2016 to the internet that existed in the 1990's is a bit unfair, don't you think? I certainly do! It astonishes me that the article here under discussion treats them so.

How so?

Via the same implicit counterfactual on which you rely - that is, that had the Internet remained a publicly funded, primarily academic project over the last two decades, it would nonetheless be substantially similar to the Internet we have today.

Re: The Internet Should Be a Public Good

#49

Post by dublinben »

tptacek wrote: post #28
gioele wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Telecom companies like Comcast and Verizon "own" the backbone because they built it. In Europe most of the backbone has been built by state-run public companies with public money. Only with the wave of privatization in the 90s the EU backbone has become privately owned (for various weird definitions of "privately owned"). However. When the backbone was publicly owned the "broadband" of the time (ISDN) was available…

If you want your Internet service to be as responsive to customers as your gas and electric service is today, I supposed you could declare the experiment "failed". As I pointed out, I'm happier with an Internet I can watch movies and make phone calls on than I am with the one that repeatedly netsplit in the 90s. Incidentally: ISDN was widely available everywhere where there were modern phone-switching networks, becau…

I would love if my internet service was as good as my gas or electric service. Those are both so reliable, that I've never once had to contact customer service. They deliver a standard level of service, according to fair, legally enforced rates. If they ever do have an outage, I'm entitled to pro-rated credits for the service interruption. They will also roll trucks any hour of the day to restore service after major weather incidents, unlike any ISP I've ever had.

Honestly, we should start holding the major ISPs to the same standard as our other utilities.

Re: The Internet Should Be a Public Good

#50

Post by objectivistbrit »

borkborkbork wrote: post #37
toss1941 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's saying the task to deploy ISDN in the 1990's was minuscule compared to what is required to roll out fiber to everyone today. It's like comparing government oranges to private Teslas.

Government has been responsible for the largest undertakings in human history. Space flight, nuclear weaponry and energy, particle colliders, etc.

Many of the largest undertakings. (Here's one counter-example - the world's first transatlantic cable: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York,_Newfoundland_and_Lon...).

The mistake many libertarians make is to argue that government is inherently incompetent. This viewpoint contradicts reality. Government agencies which attract smart people can be as successful as any private company. Large private companies can be as bureaucratic as any government agency.

The fundamental difference is that there's no way to get rid of bloated and ineffective government organisations. NASA is a good example: in the 1960s it was the place where every bright young engineer and scientist wanted to work, but over the decades it stagnated into another bureaucracy dominated by non-technical folk chasing pork-barrel funding.

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