The Internet Should Be a Public Good • Hacker News Board

Re: The Internet Should Be a Public Good

#51

Post by borkborkbork » Wed, Aug 31, 2016, 6:11 PM UTC

throwanem wrote: post #48

borkborkbork wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How so?

Via the same implicit counterfactual on which you rely - that is, that had the Internet remained a publicly funded, primarily academic project over the last two decades, it would nonetheless be substantially similar to the Internet we have today.

That's not my argument. Publicly funded does not necessarily mean primarily academic. The market is not the only driver of public demand for goods and services. Streaming video is a fairly obvious innovation that benefits the general public.

Re: The Internet Should Be a Public Good

#52

Post by rhino369 » Wed, Aug 31, 2016, 6:15 PM UTC

badsock wrote: post #13

okket wrote: post #2

Most relevant Internet bodies are noncommercial organisations, like ICANN, IETF, RIPE, ARIN, APNIC, AFNIC, LACNIC, the various Internet exchanges (xxCIX), some DNS registrars are noncommercial too. But someone has to run the actual cables, manage customers, host servers, etc. I'd say the Internet has a very good balance between commercial interests and the noncommercial "public good". So good in fact, that some very…

In BC, Canada the provision of electricity and water are by provincial/municipal governments, have very similiar requirements in terms of running wires/pipes, and in my experience have delivered much better services. They don't constantly try to gouge me. I've had to call their support lines maybe a few times my entire life (as opposed to many tens of times for telcos). And I really don't see how sending bits could b…

The government could do it that way, but you have to trust them to do it correctly the first time. Because those government run utilities don't run on ten year upgrade schedules they run on 100year upgrade schedules. When homes and apartments are connected to water and power networks they never get upgraded.

A national internet service designed in 1999 might just be ADSL for everyone.

There is a lot of talk about how great municipal fiber is, but a town near me did it over ten years ago. Took out 30 year bonds to build a 10mbit up / 10mbit down system that's pretty expensive.

You only have to look at telecom regulation in the first place. After deregulation prices dropped and investment in advances started up again. Tons of money was invested into wireless. But AT&T wasn't pushing that forward at the time.

You have to consider political issues. Voters hate "rate increases" for power, water, and electricity. Proposals to jack up rates to build a FttH system to every home I the country would be shot down.

And if you mean true government ownership and operation of the network there are privacy and censorship issues. In the USA the government is allowed to censor government airwaves but not cable networks. I'd worry that censorship attempts would be tried on an government owned network.

Re: The Internet Should Be a Public Good

#53

Post by throwanem » Wed, Aug 31, 2016, 6:16 PM UTC

dublinben wrote: post #49

tptacek wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want your Internet service to be as responsive to customers as your gas and electric service is today, I supposed you could declare the experiment "failed". As I pointed out, I'm happier with an Internet I can watch movies and make phone calls on than I am with the one that repeatedly netsplit in the 90s. Incidentally: ISDN was widely available everywhere where there were modern phone-switching networks, becau…

I would love if my internet service was as good as my gas or electric service. Those are both so reliable, that I've never once had to contact customer service. They deliver a standard level of service, according to fair, legally enforced rates. If they ever do have an outage, I'm entitled to pro-rated credits for the service interruption. They will also roll trucks any hour of the day to restore service after major…

They're also the beneficiaries of infrastructure which is already built out everywhere and requires only maintenance and occasional repair. It would be great if the same could be said of ISPs. Can it?

Re: The Internet Should Be a Public Good

#54

Post by wfo » Wed, Aug 31, 2016, 6:16 PM UTC

wonder_er wrote: post #27

From the article: > It’s precisely the insulation from market forces that enables government to finance the long-term scientific labor that ends up producing many of the most profitable inventions. It's this insulation that allows the government to waste billions and trillions on everything. Innovation requires smart people and money. Neither of which the government can provide except by taking from the population as…

Sure, I'd characterize the creation of the internet as a "waste" as well, I say while typing a message on it. Similarly the social security and medicare that allows our grandparents to continue to live without bankrupting us, or forcing us to watch them die. Similarly the healthcare that stops poor people from dying on the street or robbing/killing you and your family out of desperation, and the police that protect your wealth, and the roads you drove on to get to work today, and the regulatory bodies that ensured your car isn't an explosive deathtrap and that you didn't keel over and die this afternoon from the meat in the sandwich you ate for lunch. All wastes.

Almost all valuable research cannot be supported by a profit motive; it does not pay off in any reasonable timeline. It is always done by a group with a huge amount of money to waste, like Google, AT&T in the past, the U.S. government. The market is as terrible at creating new and relevant research as it is at creating art. It is an optimization machine that finds local maxima and it is very good at that.

The government is literally made of smart people and money.

Re: The Internet Should Be a Public Good

#55

Post by tptacek » Wed, Aug 31, 2016, 6:17 PM UTC

dublinben wrote: post #49

tptacek wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want your Internet service to be as responsive to customers as your gas and electric service is today, I supposed you could declare the experiment "failed". As I pointed out, I'm happier with an Internet I can watch movies and make phone calls on than I am with the one that repeatedly netsplit in the 90s. Incidentally: ISDN was widely available everywhere where there were modern phone-switching networks, becau…

I would love if my internet service was as good as my gas or electric service. Those are both so reliable, that I've never once had to contact customer service. They deliver a standard level of service, according to fair, legally enforced rates. If they ever do have an outage, I'm entitled to pro-rated credits for the service interruption. They will also roll trucks any hour of the day to restore service after major…

You have much better experience with your utilities than I do with mine.

Two days ago, we found out that our gas had been shut off because Nicor's billing system forgot about our auto-billing. Someone came out, shut our gas off, and locked the meter. We paid them, and they informed us they wouldn't be able to roll a truck to turn our gas on for more than a week, despite the fact that the dude they sent to turn our gas off could have knocked on our door (or, for that matter, they could have called) and worked out the billing SNAFU.

Erin go so fed up that she picked the lock on the meter; when I called to inform them that I was holding their meter lock in my hand, they sent an "emergency" crew out. The new dude had an account note instructing him not to turn our gas on, despite the fact that our account was current and the billing SNAFU was their fault.

He made fun of them and turned our gas back on.

Have you ever called to have your electrical service changed? How was that experience for you? I've had that pleasure, too.

The other great thing I'll say about our electrical is that only goes down for 12+ hours at a time a couple times a year. Depending on your expectations for electrical service in one of the largest US metro areas, that might be good!

I don't like AT&T or Verizon. But I would gleefully hand them my billing and field service work for every other utility I have. I haven't had an AT&T outage I noticed in years. I have never once waited more than a day to get them out to address a problem.

Re: The Internet Should Be a Public Good

#56

Post by run4yourlives2 » Wed, Aug 31, 2016, 6:17 PM UTC

wonder_er wrote: post #23

badsock wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In BC, Canada the provision of electricity and water are by provincial/municipal governments, have very similiar requirements in terms of running wires/pipes, and in my experience have delivered much better services. They don't constantly try to gouge me. I've had to call their support lines maybe a few times my entire life (as opposed to many tens of times for telcos). And I really don't see how sending bits could b…

Imagine the utilities had to deliver water at an increasingly high pressure, every year, or you would be furious and frustrated. So, in 2000, they're running at 5 psi. By 2005, they need to be at 50 PSI in order to keep you happy. By 2010, you expect 250 PSI. By today, you'd not be willing to tolerate anything less than 1000 PSI. Internet is not water, it is not electricity. It should not be a "public good".

This is nonsensical. Upgrades to both water delivery, electric grids and other utilities are in fact a thing, and they happen all of the time.

Funny enough, in keeping with the BC, Canada example, the BC Hydro had every customer upgraded - ie, the ENTIRE CUSTOMER BASE - to smart meters a few years back - the equivalent to running fiber to every last mile residence in the province.

Upgrades and enhancements have no bearing whatsoever on the corporate governance of the service is structured. The simple fact of the matter is that I don't need 5 companies to provide 5 different physical data delivery methods to my end point. I don't need a cable line, a phone line and a fiber line connected to my home concurrently any more than I need a 220V line to run my washing machine and a 120V line for my lights.

I need a single hookup for water. A single hookup for electricity. A single hookup for internet (or rather, communication). Any more than required is just inefficient and not cost effective.

Re: The Internet Should Be a Public Good

#57

Post by throwanem » Wed, Aug 31, 2016, 6:18 PM UTC

borkborkbork wrote: post #51

throwanem wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Via the same implicit counterfactual on which you rely - that is, that had the Internet remained a publicly funded, primarily academic project over the last two decades, it would nonetheless be substantially similar to the Internet we have today.

That's not my argument. Publicly funded does not necessarily mean primarily academic. The market is not the only driver of public demand for goods and services. Streaming video is a fairly obvious innovation that benefits the general public.

That's certainly your argument. But you're doing a better job of losing it to 'tptacek than to me. Please don't let me distract you any further.

Re: The Internet Should Be a Public Good

#58

Post by wfo » Wed, Aug 31, 2016, 6:19 PM UTC

wyager wrote: post #21

Internet is a public good => government claims general regulatory powers over what goes through the Internet. No thank you.

Internet is a public good -> regulatory powers are voted on and enacted by public bodies who are transparent and can be voted out.

Internet is a private good -> a tiny group of unelectable, unaccountable corporate leaders decide in secret everything about how it works, and are ethically required to make decisions which are bad for you and me but good for their profits.

Re: The Internet Should Be a Public Good

#59

Post by tptacek » Wed, Aug 31, 2016, 6:19 PM UTC

borkborkbork wrote: post #51

throwanem wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Via the same implicit counterfactual on which you rely - that is, that had the Internet remained a publicly funded, primarily academic project over the last two decades, it would nonetheless be substantially similar to the Internet we have today.

That's not my argument. Publicly funded does not necessarily mean primarily academic. The market is not the only driver of public demand for goods and services. Streaming video is a fairly obvious innovation that benefits the general public.

I'm sure if the government had retained full control of the Internet as a regulated public utility, the US would have the finest Department of Streaming Video in the world.

Re: The Internet Should Be a Public Good

#60

Post by dragonwriter » Wed, Aug 31, 2016, 6:21 PM UTC

objectivistbrit wrote: post #50

borkborkbork wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Government has been responsible for the largest undertakings in human history. Space flight, nuclear weaponry and energy, particle colliders, etc.

Many of the largest undertakings. (Here's one counter-example - the world's first transatlantic cable: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York,_Newfoundland_and_Lon... ). The mistake many libertarians make is to argue that government is inherently incompetent. This viewpoint contradicts reality. Government agencies which attract smart people can be as successful as any private company. Large private companies can be a…

> The fundamental difference is that there's no way to get rid of bloated and ineffective government organisations.

It may be practically difficult to do so, but there is definitely a way to do so, and its usually quite obvious from the manner in which those government organizations are structured and chartered in the first place.

Plenty of government organizations that have been viewed as "bloated", "inefficient", or otherwise undesirable have, in fact, been gotten rid of.