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California bans ITT tech from accepting new students

latimes.com

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Re: California bans ITT tech from accepting new students

#191

Post by flukus »

Ologn wrote: post #82
sanderjd wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But...if you learn all that stuff, isn't programming pretty easy? It's just specific abstractions on top of the fundamentals you already know... (I don't mean to be dismissive, I'm honestly mystified by your perspective here.)

I talked to a number of seniors majoring in computer science at a decent college not long ago - none of them knew what software version control was. While, or right after, taking these theoretical courses in Java or graphics or whatnot, I would launch a project in that area to ground all that theory in something I could then manifest. I don't think this occurred to many of them, but to be fair, they are young and hav…

Most developers (senior ones too) I come across only know the very basics of version control, how to check in/out and branch, but not merge.

Re: California bans ITT tech from accepting new students

#192

Post by dagw »

duncan_bayne wrote: post #182
dagw wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good point. I guess I should have said reputable accreditation. From ACICS's Wikipedia page: "the U.S. Department of Education formally recommended that the accreditor's recognition be withdrawn. (June 15th 2016)" So I guess they won't be accredited for long.

.... so what's the problem? Serious question. Seems like things are working as they should.

The problem is that the government allowed the problem to persist for too long before acting. If the government wants to be in the business of approving schools (even if it's only indirectly) it should hold schools to a lot higher standards and move a lot quicker when results start to slip.

For better or worse when people see "Approved by The US Department of Education" they have (perhaps unreasonable) expectations that that means something.

Re: California bans ITT tech from accepting new students

#193

Post by [deleted] »

gambiting wrote: post #138
greggman wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And this arguably the real issue. I'm all for the government funding education as long as it's effective education and not overpriced. In the case though they effectively put up a "Free Money" sign with nearly zero strings attached.

Like in UK? Where everyone gets a student loan from the government, but no university(and that includes Oxford and Cambridge) is allowed to charge more than 9k(roughly $12k) a year? You also don't start paying back until you have a job that pays more than a certain amount per year, and you have 40 years to pay it off - if you don't, it's forfeit.

[deleted]

Re: California bans ITT tech from accepting new students

#194

Post by rebeccaskinner »

buddylw wrote: post #47
rdtsc wrote: post #18

Are there any good ITT / University of Phoenix type schools? They all seem like scams. I don't count community colleges here, I know those can be very good. My wife went to one, got great education, was able to pay it by just budgeting money every month out of her part time work. Then switched to a 4 years univeristy, transfered credits and graduated with honors after 2 more years (with minimal loans). Would it be ha…

The quality of education varies between institutions. I graduated from DeVry a little over 10 years ago. I got a decent education (ABET accredited B.S. Computer Engineering Technology) and was able to put myself through school and get a good job. I could have done it a little cheaper in a state school and a lot cheaper with a community college, but for what it was I don't really have any regrets. My only critique is…

I also went to DeVry and graduated in 2006. I was really upset for a long time about the cost and quality of the education after I got into the workforce, especially after having had a few manager tell me outright that they almost didn't bring me in to interview because of the school on my resume. After talking to other people who graduated with similar degrees (mine was in CIS) it seems like the actual quality of the education I got wasn't materially worse than any of the people I know who went to state schools. Really I was upset because the recruiter had essentially promised me a CS degree and what I got was a degree that was a hybrid between a business management degree and a coding bootcamp.

I think, cost aside, I do have to acknowledge that without DeVry I'd probably have never gone to college at all. I was definitely exiting high school hovering over the cracks and ready to fall through them, I had no resources to help me even visit any other colleges, let alone navigate enrollment or filling out forms for financial aid. DeVry recruiters might have been sales people, but they made sure I was able to navigate the process and because of that I had 4 years to self-study and learn and came out of it at least able to say that I have an accredited degree.

Re: California bans ITT tech from accepting new students

#195

Post by pessimizer »

Blackthorn wrote: post #102
pessimizer wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never-ending projects that never deliver, and management that never looks at the code. Also, cheating your way through college - which is basically a requirement for a lot of programs that offer a vertical learning curve, programs spoiled by the fact that many of the people who take a CS program have been hobbyist programmers for years. After the second semester, CS students divide into three groups: 1) stressed out…

Your comment is bullshit. Some of the best people I've worked with, both in and out of college, didn't even begin programming until taking their first CS course in college. No cheating or adderall involved. You aren't doomed or damaged if you haven't programmed before hitting college. Claiming that is slandering a generation of engineers.

I'm criticizing a lot of CS programs, not programmers who didn't program before college. There are plenty of good programmers who never attended college for computers at all. My own mother started programming after majoring in English in college, learning in a training program at her job in her mid-20s (because she wanted to move out of a management track.) She went on to a 40 year career, and inspired me to become a programmer.

I can see why my comment could be seen as slandering all non-hobbyist programmers rather than programs that don't bother to teach programming because they expect you to already know when you arrive, but you would probably have to skip the second sentence of the first paragraph, and the first parenthetical in item 2).

Thanks for the rage, though.

Again, I watched people graduate who couldn't fizzbuzz. They got jobs, and they still couldn't fizzbuzz. These were friends, who I liked very much as people, and I'm as happy that they got good jobs as I am sure that anybody who hired them should be fired.

Re: California bans ITT tech from accepting new students

#196

Post by brogrammernot »

crazy1van wrote: post #51

I agree with a lot of the complaints I've heard about ITT. They seem to broadly fall into three camps: 1) They are expensive and rely on their students getting gov't loans, 2) They don't adequately prepare students for the work place, and 3) The teachers aren't very good. I think those are all great reasons to not go to ITT. But, I think those reasons could also apply to a whole lot of other schools, profit, non-prof…

I disagree with #2 completely where you specify a school that has majors with poor job prospects. I studied Psychology/Philosophy, specifically Psychopharmacology and Neuroscience related fields within Psychology, but the job prospects for a Psychology major are minimum entry level jobs at best unless one pursues grad school.

My plan was never to work in the field, but rather take classes that I enjoyed and could learn more to become a more well rounded individual. With that, the onus is upon the student who takes a major that does not have incredibly great outlook upon graduation to develop a plan to survive in the real world.

I'm a mid level software engineer now, and the courses I took around I/O Psychology, Human Behavior Psych and many other Social based Psychology courses have paid incredible dividends within my career.

I know n=1, but as someone who worked nearly full time through out college to afford it even with student loans I'm tired of hearing about the blame being on colleges. The student has a responsibility to harden the "f" up and prepare themself for the realities of the real world.

Re: California bans ITT tech from accepting new students

#197

Post by brogrammernot »

crazy1van wrote: post #51

I agree with a lot of the complaints I've heard about ITT. They seem to broadly fall into three camps: 1) They are expensive and rely on their students getting gov't loans, 2) They don't adequately prepare students for the work place, and 3) The teachers aren't very good. I think those are all great reasons to not go to ITT. But, I think those reasons could also apply to a whole lot of other schools, profit, non-prof…

I disagree with #2 completely where you specify a school that has majors with poor job prospects. I studied Psychology/Philosophy, specifically Psychopharmacology and Neuroscience related fields within Psychology, but the job prospects for a Psychology major are minimum entry level jobs at best unless one pursues grad school.

My plan was never to work in the field, but rather take classes that I enjoyed and could learn more to become a more well rounded individual. With that, the onus is upon the student who takes a major that does not have incredibly great outlook upon graduation to develop a plan to survive in the real world.

I'm a mid level software engineer now, and the courses I took around I/O Psychology, Human Behavior Psych and many other Social based Psychology courses have paid incredible dividends within my career.

I know n=1, but as someone who worked nearly full time through out college to afford it even with student loans I'm tired of hearing about the blame being on colleges. The student has a responsibility to harden the "f" up and prepare themself for the realities of the real world.

Re: California bans ITT tech from accepting new students

#198

Post by brianwawok »

djsumdog wrote: post #123
selectodude wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because student loans are guaranteed by the federal government. Student can default and the bank will still get their money.

> Student can default Um no. They can't. That's the problem with American student loans. It's the only contract you can enter into under 18 and you can never declare bankruptcy on them. It's the most bullshit type of loan there is. In grad school I put part of my car on Student Loans because it was 0%. My car load was 5.2%. After I graduated, my student loans shot up to 6.8%! I quickly dumped all my savings onto them…

Technically illegal to use school loans for things like cars or houses.

Re: California bans ITT tech from accepting new students

#199

Post by brohee »

jessedhillon wrote: post #99
gohrt wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What bias? You can't get a degree in HVAC repair at a traditional university. It's a different labor pool.

Here's ITT's course catalog for their Oakland campus: https://www.itt-tech.edu/campus/download/140.pdf I'll save you the surprise of discovering that Ctrl+F'ing for "HVAC" yields zero results.

Some gems in here

    SD2520 Introduction to Database and XML with jQuery
    4.5 credit hours 
    This course introduces fundamental concepts of database technology and applications.
    Topics include object-oriented relational databases, database management systems,
    and using SQL, XML and jQuery to build databases that interact with applications. 
    Prerequisite: PT1420 Introduction to Programming or equivalent

Re: California bans ITT tech from accepting new students

#200

Post by exoromeo »

awongh wrote: post #190
jmcgough wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, these are problems that are present for some other schools, but ITT Tech is far worse. For-profit schools aren't even in the same ballpark as other types of schools, in terms of the default rate. These are businesses where the "admissions counselors" are salespeople who are told to lie to people and strongarm them into attending, taking out massive government loans and effectively stealing money from the federal…

What's the default rate for private student loans for a public 4-year school?

Roughly 8.9% it looks like.

(Last section of article mentions it...)

http://higherednotdebt.org/blog/time-itt-tech-go

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