Praise for Intelligence Can Undermine Children's Motivation (1998) [pdf] • Hacker News Board

Re: Praise for Intelligence Can Undermine Children's Motivation (1998) [pdf]

#161

Post by rhizome » Sat, Aug 06, 2016, 5:40 PM UTC

Fordrus wrote: post #127

rhizome wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Talk about it. "That's great! Was it hard?"

This is great advice, but I'm not sure it hits the mark I'm trying to hit - I do already talk to my little guy about what things were hard vs. easy, and how much I admire his efforts, but there's a flow to interactions, especially with a small child - I'm looking for something I can use for a shorthand of this kind of conversation, because he totally loses interest if I just sit there and jabber for too long. If I wa…

I hear you, and my thought was to simply put the ball in their court. Perhaps they're too young to go beyond yes or no, I have no experience in parenting, but I thought it could signal interest in their experience and success to prepare for the time when they do respond with "yes! $reason..." If my parents had ever left the door open for me to say "that sucked!" things may have been different, but I'm sure as a parent you're full-up with advice based on psychological projection.

In light of all this, though, how about "Great, you're getting better!" It acknowleges the accomplishment, marks them as improving over the past, and implies there's more to do? Again, projection. :)

Re: Praise for Intelligence Can Undermine Children's Motivation (1998) [pdf]

#162

Post by Spooky23 » Sat, Aug 06, 2016, 7:25 PM UTC

bpchaps wrote: post #139

Spooky23 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my school, it was in 1993/1994. They went from "tracked" classes that mixed the 20 year old 9th graders with smart kids. Everyone got to suffer together.

I was a "smart kid" in high school and found myself getting bored in the honors class to point of getting kicked out and pushed into the "normal" class as the only white kid, 90% of the time. It was honestly probably the best thing that happened to me. It helped me build empathy and grounded me to accepting that intelligence is only one piece of the puzzle. I'm now working in a position that gives me huge intellectua…

There's a difference between the "honors" classes with the kid/parent drama and "normal" students. In can see where not being wrapped up with the super achiever people would be a benefit.

In my specific case, it was a poor rural district with four 20-25 student sections. Mixing up the barely literate and disruptive kids made things harder. In my senior year my project partner in Civics was a fellow senior who basically couldn't write.

The only escape was AP classes -- but we only had AP English, US History and Calc.

As part of "raising standards" they started requiring advanced math. We were unable to compete the material, and I learned a lot of math while cramming for the annual exam -- which in my state was standardized and a key to college admissions.

Re: Praise for Intelligence Can Undermine Children's Motivation (1998) [pdf]

#163

Post by woliveirajr » Sun, Aug 07, 2016, 3:04 AM UTC

wrsh07 wrote: post #87

ChuckMcM wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having raised three kids I have learned that 99% of all parenting advice does not apply to any specific child and any specific parent. That said, parenting goals are consistent; Helping kids to understand the world around them, understand their effect on the world, and recognizing what it will take to achieve a particular goal. Telling kids they are "smart" is part of the "understanding the world around them" goal. T…

I interpret this advice as trying to give accurate feedback. Students don't get As on tests because they're naturals. They get As on tests from paying attention in class or from studying or from doing their homework [or for some combination]. So crediting what they did specifically (pay attention, study, etc) to accomplish their goal (get an A on a test) is a way to reward the work that they did [and to tie the succe…

They get As on tests because they answered it right.

Perhaps the test was just too easy to the student that any compliment will sound false or unreal.

Example: to challenge myself in the (any name you give to the class you're in when you are 14) I would challenge myself giving me just one minute to each answer in amath test. Any compliment would be weird.

Re: Praise for Intelligence Can Undermine Children's Motivation (1998) [pdf]

#164

Post by bpchaps » Sun, Aug 07, 2016, 10:38 PM UTC

Spooky23 wrote: post #162

bpchaps wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was a "smart kid" in high school and found myself getting bored in the honors class to point of getting kicked out and pushed into the "normal" class as the only white kid, 90% of the time. It was honestly probably the best thing that happened to me. It helped me build empathy and grounded me to accepting that intelligence is only one piece of the puzzle. I'm now working in a position that gives me huge intellectua…

There's a difference between the "honors" classes with the kid/parent drama and "normal" students. In can see where not being wrapped up with the super achiever people would be a benefit. In my specific case, it was a poor rural district with four 20-25 student sections. Mixing up the barely literate and disruptive kids made things harder. In my senior year my project partner in Civics was a fellow senior who basical…

Yes, agreed. Though, it's important to note that the number of honor's programs without that class of drama is small without expensive schooling or certain types of homeschooling.

Not having to do 'difficult' homework was the catalyst that gave me the freetime to work on programming which is another reason why getting kicked out was great.

Not sure why I'm thinking about it or why I'm even mentioning it, but this happened in the same city Ray Bradbury grew up. Everybody in the school was required to read 451, which was treated as a homework with uninterested students' contempt. It's very interesting to be raised in the city that influenced much of his writing.

Re: Praise for Intelligence Can Undermine Children's Motivation (1998) [pdf]

#165

Post by landryraccoon » Mon, Aug 08, 2016, 4:13 AM UTC

nitrogen wrote: post #86

landryraccoon wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> athletic kid who dominates them at sports but struggles academically, what conclusion will the smart kid draw? Your implicit assumption is that your kid will not succeed at something athletically no matter how hard they try . If a kid dreams of going for the NBA or the NFL, why not let them try? What's the benefit of praising a child for their intelligence if intelligence is immutable? Is it a self esteem play or w…

Your implicit assumption is that your kid will not succeed at something athletically no matter how hard they try. If a kid dreams of going for the NBA or the NFL, why not let them try? It's a hypothetical example to show that there might be kids who are inherently good at different things, and that focusing on intelligence as the attribute not to praise hasn't played out over the last 18 years the way people seemed t…

> truly intelligent children won't be afraid to use their intelligence to get ahead

I think you're saying that unless you give intelligent children permission to use their intelligence, they won't do so, or will do so less. I find that very dubious. What evidence do you have for this? I even feel (though I hope I am mistaken) that what you are really after is a hint that it's okay for your kids to feel superior or entitled in some sense relative to kids that are less intelligent. If intelligence is useful for producing work, why not let all kids be judged by the work they produce, rather than something abstract like intelligence?

Re: Praise for Intelligence Can Undermine Children's Motivation (1998) [pdf]

#166

Post by GrinningFool » Fri, Aug 12, 2016, 2:22 AM UTC

visarga wrote: post #151

GrinningFool wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a child wants to do is what a child wants to do right now . If you ask the same question a few minutes later, you could get an entirely different answer. As adults who have lived through being children, a surprising percentage of us actually do know better than a small child what's best for the small child for a surprising percentage of their lives.

I read once about a highschool boy, a good student, who was shocked when a teacher asked him "What do YOU want to do?". What? he thought. This question has never crossed my mind. Nobody told me I can make my own mind. It was always "teacher knows best" and "parent knows best" and "be a good student and learn what we teach you, do what we tell you". I wrote from this point of view, but I agree that parents and teacher…

Sorry, I missed this reply. I think I was considering a younger age range - and even so, I agree. They need to be allowed to make their mistakes.