This article has been posted and discussed on HackerNews before. I mean, not this exact same article, but the same narrative written by different authors. That shows on the one hand that a lot of people are unfortunately affected by the same problem, but it also means that it's not a new problem. Whether it's academia or industry, after working at the same place for some 8 years or so, I think it's only human that yo…
> why would academia be any different to any other work place? If anything it should be worse. Companies realize a profit which the pay some of to their employees. Education, on the other hand, is a net loss operation.
When tenure never comes
131–140 of 144 posts
Re: When tenure never comes
#132Earlier quoted context omitted.
Does McDonald's lay off staff every 9 months?
McDonald's turnover is at least 44%, so basically yes. http://fistfuloftalent.com/2008/05/can-this-turnov.html
Re: When tenure never comes
#133Earlier quoted context omitted.
Let me be clear for others who come across this because I'm completely sure that since you've been a student and now work in the system you know where I am coming from as a student. Surely there will be people who read this who have not had the 'pleasure' of being graced with the "bad kind" of tenured professor. In my college experience, which has only been one year, I've met a few types of professors. There is the k…
The confusion here is that you seem to think tenure has something to do with teaching. For a research university, tenure mostly (but not entirely) is a reward for research (and grant-getting) excellence. It's a quirk of our system that excellent world-class researchers are obligated to teach basic materials to undergraduates, and sadly not all of them are very good at it. Further, while poor grading reviews don't hel…
Re: When tenure never comes
#134Earlier quoted context omitted.
Let me be clear for others who come across this because I'm completely sure that since you've been a student and now work in the system you know where I am coming from as a student. Surely there will be people who read this who have not had the 'pleasure' of being graced with the "bad kind" of tenured professor. In my college experience, which has only been one year, I've met a few types of professors. There is the k…
The confusion here is that you seem to think tenure has something to do with teaching. For a research university, tenure mostly (but not entirely) is a reward for research (and grant-getting) excellence. It's a quirk of our system that excellent world-class researchers are obligated to teach basic materials to undergraduates, and sadly not all of them are very good at it. Further, while poor grading reviews don't hel…
This is mirrored in the CS department where I am. One full time professor was given an offer by the school, a "retirement package." It was rumored to be in the 250k range. He is unanimously refereed to as "the weed-out professor" by everyone of my peers since he is the only teacher for one of the mandatory CS classes.
Sadly he has not taken the retirement package and has one of the highest failure rate classes in the college.
He has not been fired due to his tenure.
This is the reason why I and many other students have this distaste for tenure: because whenever we are confronted with it, it is because our lives are made infinity more difficult because of it.
In the years to come as students who have been poorly treated by tenured professors seep into administration of colleges there will be problems because of this.
I can't fix it and I don't mind at all if professors loose tenure as an option. That being said, if the research community wants to keep it they are going to need to shift public opinion of it and that will only happen by hiring professors who are good at teaching to replace the brilliant researchers in that regard.
Re: When tenure never comes
#135Earlier quoted context omitted.
This makes sense, but are we not at a time where you can simply do all of those things and people won't crucify you? > When you work in industry, your job is to do what you're told. You are told to publish, are you not? It's the same principle except your job has extra steps. I'd also like to point out colleges aren't the end all be all of R&D. The industry does R&D as well and they do crazy R&D without tenure. I've…
I think your inherent bias knowing only about your field is distorting your r&d expectations. Can you imagine a private sector narrative that could give rise to CRISPR? That's the sort of blue sky r&d that tenure is designed to protect - basic science r&d is impossible to value.
There's lots of research funded by private companies.
That being said, I'd say that it is possible to do the same research without tenure. Are you saying that you'd never be allowed to research something as important as CRISPR technology had you not received tenure?
If that is the case then that's a problem; if researchers cannot research certain things then there is a larger problem in the academic world and I'd need to be convinced that tenure is the best solution for it.
Re: When tenure never comes
#136Earlier quoted context omitted.
McDonald's turnover is at least 44%, so basically yes. http://fistfuloftalent.com/2008/05/can-this-turnov.html
The comparison doesn't hold up when rates of voluntary job separation and involuntary laid offs are being discussed.
Re: When tenure never comes
#137Earlier quoted context omitted.
Tenure is also a way to say "go do the crazy things you wouldn't be able to do otherwise".
I thought that was a job in research and development? I know people in private companies that do this. If your work is so crazy that it is completely inexplicable to another person and you cannot articulate it's value, then how are you going to find people to help you? This seems like a really really uncommon situation. In my college, there are professors who are in a nontenured position who do this sort of work. The…
They don't realize it, but they are auto-constraining themselves to research that may eventually produce a profit. Example, IBM's research journal: https://www.research.ibm.com/journal/
Re: When tenure never comes
#138UK University chair of a STEM dept graduate school chipping in here: Every September during induction I point out to the PhD students that there are (around) ten of them in the room and our department advertised (around) 1 job last year. We also tell them this when they are applying for the PhD in the first place. They seem unfazed. Our PhD course lasts no longer than 4 years (good students are out in 3) and they app…
This is more of an issue in Germany (where I work now) than in the UK (where I did my PhD).
Re: When tenure never comes
#139I don’t need to be dealing with signing religious codes of conduct or dealing with campuses where eighteen-year-olds can carry concealed guns Quelle horreur! So he wants tenure at a US university, but he won't go to the UK or Europe because...oh dear, that might involve sacrifice.
Re: When tenure never comes
#140An academic career should never be your only option. Make sure you study something that is useful in the real economy.
I sincerely hope that people who are genuinely excited about research do not adopt this attitude. Our affluent society allows us to specialize in what we like; allowing the best of us to create art and mathematics and make discoveries in science is as important as being a "contributing member of society".
Yes, but this stops happening when economic growth is non-existent.
The Western economy (developed countries generally), outside of Silicon Valley and a small number of bright spots, is not really growing.
First let us dispense with certain lies that nearly everybody believes.
The statistics about growth you always hear in the news or from politicians are fraudulent. All economic growth ultimately derives from technology - more output for less input or doing more with less. In the 1930s the growth statistics looked very bad but were actually better than they appeared because a host of new technologies were invented - artificial rubber, secondary oil recovery. Measuring this sort of thing is meaningless because every new invention is only discovered once. How the invention of the steam engine and vulcanized rubber impacts on the price network is unknown until it actually happens and the two inventions contribution to economic growth cannot be compared until they enter the price network egro...
The growth stats were always at best a guess at the underlying reality.
The real economy has not grown significantly since the early 70s. People who correctly point to the massive increase in computational power as marvelous should contrast that with with real energy prices in the same period. That is what the hoi polloi feel, and they are more correct about that than a supertanker packed with econometricians and politicians. This is why the hated Trump is so beloved, notice how the campaign slogan isn't 'Make America Greater', it is 'Make American Great Again'. This admission of a failure is fascinating (for a politician) and utterly ignored by the press.
I don't believe it is 'the end of the world' (there was some growth after all) but people really need to pull their heads out of the asses, academics in particular. Unless we realize there is a problem we cannot adjust our positions in order to fix it.
The fact is that the ideas in your head need to pay rent somehow.
If the net affect is that they do not, then society fragments, which is an appropriate strategy to deal with failure through complexity. I note that the Roman Empire had a very high basic literacy rate. Normal people could read and most often poor children went to a kind of elementary school.
That all got fucked when the Empire fell. It didn't happen immediately but we ultimately went 5 centuries in which only a tiny tiny elite, sometimes in the low hundreds or thousands had the ability to read and write. There is a small island off the coast of my country that held the only copies of most old Greek and Roman texts, but for that 'seedbank' saved by the monks and a passionate illiterate king (Carogolian Empire), you would know nothing of Seneca, Cicero, all the myths and legends of the Ancient World and much more besides.
Kenneth Clark did an excellent documentary on the subject if you're interested.
The episode is: Civilisation (1969) Episode 1 "The Skin of Our Teeth", from 13:35.
Things can and do go backwards.