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When tenure never comes

thewalrus.ca

101–110 of 144 posts

Re: When tenure never comes

#101

It's interesting to see this story on the front page at the same time with another one titled "We Should Not Accept Scientific Results That Have Not Been Repeated" . It's easy to solve both problems (killing two birds with one stone?) by implementing protocols of purging scientists with track records of non-repeatable results from "personal opinions" and fraudulent scholars gaming publishing systems, including titles…

Removing scientists whose results aren't replicated is firing by lottery. Results fail to repeat all the time.

Re: When tenure never comes

#102
post #60
post #51

Many people have pointed to an overpopulation being the root cause for this, but I believe that ignores the increasingly inflating administrative staff at universities. That is, it is also a budget problem. The budget for the increase in professor staff is being diverted into additional administrative positions that do... something, apparently. I'm not convinced that the administrative bloat is worth a fraction of wh…

You'd be appalled at how much overhead universities take out of research grants (from NSF, DARPA, NIH, etc.) to maintain these administrations (along with legitimate uses, like paying utility bills). 40-50% is not uncommon.

I won some student award at school funded through an industry sponsor. I think it was $1000. I was recommended by one of my professors. As part of the processing fee, they deducted 20% for school overhead!

Re: When tenure never comes

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This makes sense, but are we not at a time where you can simply do all of those things and people won't crucify you? > When you work in industry, your job is to do what you're told. You are told to publish, are you not? It's the same principle except your job has extra steps. I'd also like to point out colleges aren't the end all be all of R&D. The industry does R&D as well and they do crazy R&D without tenure. I've…

"are we not at a time where you can simply do all of those things and people won't crucify you?" Are you in the US? I'd say it's pretty clear you can get crucified for stating an unpopular opinion. "I'd also like to point out colleges aren't the end all be all of R&D." And they shouldn't be. They should primarily do work that the private sector is not willing to fund. "I think this is a much more complete answer then…

Let me be clear for others who come across this because I'm completely sure that since you've been a student and now work in the system you know where I am coming from as a student. Surely there will be people who read this who have not had the 'pleasure' of being graced with the "bad kind" of tenured professor.

In my college experience, which has only been one year, I've met a few types of professors.

There is the kind who LOVES teaching and who is amazing at it. This is the only kind of teacher that I'll give a real life example of. If you're going to NJIT and need a math teacher you're going to want to look for these two names: Jimmy Hayes and Kenneth Horwitz.

Both don't only want you to learn but they also want to be the one who teaches you. If I could have every professor I meet conduct themselves like this I'd have no problem with tenure. And that's coming from someone who failed the class taught by Hayes. The reason I'm giving such praise to these professors is there is absolutely no way my failing grade was their Hayes fault, it was my own (I had some problems going on in my life at the time).

They spent all the time they could preparing us for the exams and also gave us points back if we did something that was incorrectly graded and we could prove it was right.

Next there is the kind who "believes in the system". They teach because they enjoy it, they are usually charismatic and good at teaching but that isn't their main focus. They either do this while engaging in research or other projects to help the school or further their field.

I have no problem with this second group. It is again someone who puts time and effort into their job. Someone who cares about their work. It's altogether someone who is furthering humanity while not harming others around them.

The last professor is someone you don't want. It's the professor who is tenured. That's how all of us students refer to them since these seem to be the only kind of people, in the eye of a student, who actually has it. They are the professor who comes in 15 minutes late to class, consistently, refuses to answer emails or questions, and leaves randomly through the semester.

I've actually had one of or physics professors come in on the first day 15 minutes late. He started the lecture (for the class that was meant to be taken along side of Calculus 1) by saying "So does everyone here know how to take the derivative." When everyone is confused, he does a 10-second-basic drawing of what it was. Asked if anyone had any questions. He scanned the room full of raised hands and said "Ok" then went on with the lecture.

This happened 10-15 times across the semester.

Another incident was that the physics department cobbles together a "sort of practice exam" for each test. I found this out from a friend as my teacher had never talked about nor handed this exam out.

The last story I'll share of this horrible professor took place around the time of the 3rd exam. I took the exam and went in the next class to get my scores only to find he had absconded with the only copies of our exam on a "business trip"; we had to wait 3 weeks to get our exam scores. (I had given up at that point and started randomly answering on the exams. For this test I got 17/20 placing me in the top 20% of the test takers.... that might tell you a bit about our exams)

So this is my problem with tenure. It's often the WORST of the worst you notice have it while the best of the best struggle to get it since it seems they aren't one to shut up and play ball with the stupid processes needed to get it.

Re: When tenure never comes

#104
post #96
post #95

Something doesn't add up. University education costs have been increasing over at least the last one or two decades. But universities keep reducing costs by hiring adjunct, sessional, or contract faculty who are presumably less well paid than full-time professors. So where is the universities' money going to? Are they losing it by mismanaging their endowment funds? Are they spending more in other areas?

For public (state-funded) universities, they receive a large percentage of their operating budget not from tuition or endowments, but directly from the state. In many cases, over the past 10+ years, this direct support has been slashed. So, for these institutions, even as tuition has been increasing, their total budget was likely dropping. Tuition hasn't been able to keep up with the loss of state funding, so the uni…

Then why do they keep increasing the administrative staffing?

Re: When tenure never comes

#105
This article has been posted and discussed on HackerNews before. I mean, not this exact same article, but the same narrative written by different authors. That shows on the one hand that a lot of people are unfortunately affected by the same problem, but it also means that it's not a new problem.

Whether it's academia or industry, after working at the same place for some 8 years or so, I think it's only human that you get a feeling that your employer "owes you" for your commitment. And perhaps they really do? But people lose their jobs all the time, why would academia be any different to any other work place?

Re: When tenure never comes

#106
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I heard a professor with tenure encourage my friend to try to get PhD by saying things like "Find an out of the way small college, get tenure, once you get it you don't have to do anything, you'll always have a job, you'll have time to travel, go to the pool do whatever you want". In a way that mirrored what that professor was doing -- teaching stuff that was last relevant in mid 80's, doing absolutely the minimum re…

Oh tenure. I get why it existed but it also seems so easy to abuse. I think most of my great profs did not have tenure. Maybe 1 or 2 did.

Of all the exploitable opportunities tenure is one of the worst. Your plan has to be "I will go to school for an additional 4-6 years. Then I will become a low paid professor. I'll take on increasing responsibilities for 5-7 years and apply for tenure. Then I may just get it and I'm set!"

Seems like somebody with enough smarts to do that could just go work in industry, make a bunch of money, then retire and do what they want.

Re: When tenure never comes

#107
post #105

This article has been posted and discussed on HackerNews before. I mean, not this exact same article, but the same narrative written by different authors. That shows on the one hand that a lot of people are unfortunately affected by the same problem, but it also means that it's not a new problem. Whether it's academia or industry, after working at the same place for some 8 years or so, I think it's only human that yo…

> why would academia be any different to any other work place?

If anything it should be worse. Companies realize a profit which the pay some of to their employees. Education, on the other hand, is a net loss operation.

Re: When tenure never comes

#108
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tenure is also a way to say "go do the crazy things you wouldn't be able to do otherwise".

I thought that was a job in research and development? I know people in private companies that do this. If your work is so crazy that it is completely inexplicable to another person and you cannot articulate it's value, then how are you going to find people to help you? This seems like a really really uncommon situation. In my college, there are professors who are in a nontenured position who do this sort of work. The…

> I thought that was a job in research and development?

The type of research R&D shops perform is (reasonably) constrained by the profit motive. There is value to society by empowering individuals to pursue topics in a broader sphere. Even economic benefits, though I philosophically disagree that for an idea to have merit it needs to be profitable.

Just a random example; modern cryptography comes from "the mathematics of the algebraic structure of elliptic curves over finite fields." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliptic_curve_cryptography

Somebody was reading up on that field of research and discovered it could be used to encrypt messages. Out of that blossomed a whole new sector of the economy. But the mathematicians who initially pioneered the work had no idea it would ever be used that way. They were just happily studying one of a thousand random and seemingly pointless avenues of mathematical exploration.

Re: When tenure never comes

#109
post #76

Does HN have any advice for those looking to get a PhD because they love the field (Computer Science)? And then follow up the PhD with a job at one of the tech companies' research arm?

My 2 cents:

Get a Masters and go into industry. You will love the work you get to do in the field. Over time you'll learn what big unsolved problems are that we are currently facing. You might find one that particularly interests you and start thinking "man, I'd love to have a lot of time to really dig in and solve this problem, something my job never provides" Then you go back for the PhD where you get that time.

The work ethic that you learned will be invaluable and you'll have something solid to pursue.

In my opinion the two biggest wastes I saw when I was in my PhD program were: 1. most students had no work ethic. It was always "I fucked around all week and then rushed to do research before meeting with my professor" 2. not having any idea what kind of research the world needs. And why should you if you never go out and experience the world?

Re: When tenure never comes

#110
I don’t need to be dealing with signing religious codes of conduct or dealing with campuses where eighteen-year-olds can carry concealed guns

Quelle horreur! So he wants tenure at a US university, but he won't go to the UK or Europe because...oh dear, that might involve sacrifice.

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