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When tenure never comes

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Re: When tenure never comes

#81

Post by cheez »

gravypod wrote: post #80

Can someone please explain to my why tenure is needed? I've had some professors attempt to do it to me in the past and I never got it. I maybe understand it for a humanities subject, but for STEM no chance for me. I don't have tenure when it comes to working in the industry. If I'm a good enough employee I'll stay on, if I'm a bad enough employee I'll be replaced. Tenure just seems to protect mediocrity. Can someone…

Tenure is also a way to say "go do the crazy things you wouldn't be able to do otherwise".

Re: When tenure never comes

#82

Post by bachmeier »

gravypod wrote: post #80

Can someone please explain to my why tenure is needed? I've had some professors attempt to do it to me in the past and I never got it. I maybe understand it for a humanities subject, but for STEM no chance for me. I don't have tenure when it comes to working in the industry. If I'm a good enough employee I'll stay on, if I'm a bad enough employee I'll be replaced. Tenure just seems to protect mediocrity. Can someone…

When you work in industry, your job is to do what you're told. When you do research, your job is to learn new things and tell others about them, no matter who doesn't like those results. If you're studying earthquakes in Oklahoma, the oil companies won't like it. If you're studying evolution, certain segments of the population won't like it.

Tenure is one way of protecting academic freedom. You seem to be thinking of it in terms of job security. As many tenured professors that have been fired over the years for reasons like the university having financial difficulties can tell you, tenure does not provide job security. Of course there is a correlation between the two.

Re: When tenure never comes

#83

Post by gravypod »

cheez wrote: post #81
gravypod wrote: post #80

Can someone please explain to my why tenure is needed? I've had some professors attempt to do it to me in the past and I never got it. I maybe understand it for a humanities subject, but for STEM no chance for me. I don't have tenure when it comes to working in the industry. If I'm a good enough employee I'll stay on, if I'm a bad enough employee I'll be replaced. Tenure just seems to protect mediocrity. Can someone…

Tenure is also a way to say "go do the crazy things you wouldn't be able to do otherwise".

I thought that was a job in research and development? I know people in private companies that do this.

If your work is so crazy that it is completely inexplicable to another person and you cannot articulate it's value, then how are you going to find people to help you?

This seems like a really really uncommon situation.

In my college, there are professors who are in a nontenured position who do this sort of work. The difference is they can communicate the value of their work, set milestones for their research, and explain to people why they have or have not reached them.

If that cannot be done, or it falls on death ears, you have a much bigger problem at hand: the problem of academics not being able to recognize ground breaking research.

Re: When tenure never comes

#84

Post by pjmorris »

ilarum wrote: post #76

Does HN have any advice for those looking to get a PhD because they love the field (Computer Science)? And then follow up the PhD with a job at one of the tech companies' research arm?

If you really love it, there's no sense in talking about reason. "And yet, to say the truth, reason and love keep little company together nowadays." - Bottom, Midsummer Night's Dream

As for tech company research arms, look carefully at who recruits where you intend to go, and who your potential advisors publish with. If you land in a place with good connections, it increases your chances of landing a gig like that.

Re: When tenure never comes

#85

Post by cpitman »

pascalxus wrote: post #61

Does anyone else see the contradiction: the amount students are spending on college keeps going up, but the budget for professors seems to keep going down. What accounts for the discrepancy?

The belief that everyone should go to college. What the government spends on public schools has actually gone up over the decades, but a move to everyone going to college means that funding per student has dropped.

Edit: Link to source: https://trends.collegeboard.org/college-pricing/figures-tabl...

Re: When tenure never comes

#86

Post by gravypod »

bachmeier wrote: post #82
gravypod wrote: post #80

Can someone please explain to my why tenure is needed? I've had some professors attempt to do it to me in the past and I never got it. I maybe understand it for a humanities subject, but for STEM no chance for me. I don't have tenure when it comes to working in the industry. If I'm a good enough employee I'll stay on, if I'm a bad enough employee I'll be replaced. Tenure just seems to protect mediocrity. Can someone…

When you work in industry, your job is to do what you're told. When you do research, your job is to learn new things and tell others about them, no matter who doesn't like those results. If you're studying earthquakes in Oklahoma, the oil companies won't like it. If you're studying evolution, certain segments of the population won't like it. Tenure is one way of protecting academic freedom. You seem to be thinking of…

This makes sense, but are we not at a time where you can simply do all of those things and people won't crucify you?

> When you work in industry, your job is to do what you're told.

You are told to publish, are you not? It's the same principle except your job has extra steps.

I'd also like to point out colleges aren't the end all be all of R&D. The industry does R&D as well and they do crazy R&D without tenure. I've met people who have started companies just so they could do what they want, moved to companies just so they could research one thing, or even convinced their current boss as to why a certain piece of research would be of value.

I think this is a much more complete answer then what I've been told before, but it's still quite fishy.

Re: When tenure never comes

#87

Post by bachmeier »

ilarum wrote: post #76

Does HN have any advice for those looking to get a PhD because they love the field (Computer Science)? And then follow up the PhD with a job at one of the tech companies' research arm?

"get a PhD because they love the field"

For the most part, loving the field is a terrible reason to get a PhD, especially in the humanities. I encourage students considering this decision to do so based on the job market - what options will be available, what is the pay, what will you be doing in that job. And make your decision assuming you are below average.

Re: When tenure never comes

#88

Post by bachmeier »

pjmorris wrote: post #84
ilarum wrote: post #76

Does HN have any advice for those looking to get a PhD because they love the field (Computer Science)? And then follow up the PhD with a job at one of the tech companies' research arm?

If you really love it, there's no sense in talking about reason. "And yet, to say the truth, reason and love keep little company together nowadays." - Bottom, Midsummer Night's Dream As for tech company research arms, look carefully at who recruits where you intend to go, and who your potential advisors publish with. If you land in a place with good connections, it increases your chances of landing a gig like that.

"If you really love it, there's no sense in talking about reason."

Not getting a PhD does not prevent you from working in the field or from reading the literature. IMO the only reason to get a PhD is that it will open jobs that otherwise wouldn't be available.

Re: When tenure never comes

#89

Post by jccalhoun »

gravypod wrote: post #83
cheez wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tenure is also a way to say "go do the crazy things you wouldn't be able to do otherwise".

I thought that was a job in research and development? I know people in private companies that do this. If your work is so crazy that it is completely inexplicable to another person and you cannot articulate it's value, then how are you going to find people to help you? This seems like a really really uncommon situation. In my college, there are professors who are in a nontenured position who do this sort of work. The…

I'm in the humanities and at least in my situation (and that of the people I know who are in similar situations) is that I have no time to do research. I'm paid to teach 5 classes a semester. Last semester I had 5 classes with 3 different topics, one I had never taught before, 3 classes with 24 students each, one with 32, and a lecture with 70. After the first couple weeks of the semester I got zero writing done. So this summer I spent nearly every day working on getting something submitted to a journal (and there's no guarantee it will get published. the paper I spent last summer working on got rejected).

I enjoy teaching but I didn't get my phd so I could spend my entire career doing nothing but teaching entry level courses.

So I need to get a tenure-track job so my teaching load is less and I will be able to teach higher-level courses. But to get a tenure-track job I need to get published. But to get published I need time to write which I don't have because I don't have a tenure-track job...

So I'm giving it one more year before I give up on the career path I've been working towards for over 15 years at this point.

Re: When tenure never comes

#90

Post by bachmeier »

gravypod wrote: post #86
bachmeier wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you work in industry, your job is to do what you're told. When you do research, your job is to learn new things and tell others about them, no matter who doesn't like those results. If you're studying earthquakes in Oklahoma, the oil companies won't like it. If you're studying evolution, certain segments of the population won't like it. Tenure is one way of protecting academic freedom. You seem to be thinking of…

This makes sense, but are we not at a time where you can simply do all of those things and people won't crucify you? > When you work in industry, your job is to do what you're told. You are told to publish, are you not? It's the same principle except your job has extra steps. I'd also like to point out colleges aren't the end all be all of R&D. The industry does R&D as well and they do crazy R&D without tenure. I've…

"are we not at a time where you can simply do all of those things and people won't crucify you?"

Are you in the US? I'd say it's pretty clear you can get crucified for stating an unpopular opinion.

"I'd also like to point out colleges aren't the end all be all of R&D."

And they shouldn't be. They should primarily do work that the private sector is not willing to fund.

"I think this is a much more complete answer then what I've been told before, but it's still quite fishy."

There are no doubt advantages and disadvantages of tenure. Whether tenure is a good system is definitely up for debate, but the tradeoff is that some research will not be done and some topics will not be addressed in the classroom. There's little incentive to risk your career by jumping into controversial situations. Perhaps we are willing to move to a different model.

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