Harvard Study: Biggest Factor in Divorce Is Husband's Employment Status • Hacker News Board

Re: Harvard Study: Biggest Factor in Divorce Is Husband's Employment Status

#151

Post by makomk » Fri, Jul 29, 2016, 10:16 AM UTC

zaroth wrote: post #118

moseandre wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are simplifying to wage garnishing. Probably the parent comment is intimating things like loss of socioeconomic position due to the divorce. If marriages are financially unequal in many cases, fundamentally, then divorce shows that too. But the consequences are like, how well you fare after versus before... the schoolteacher and the banker divorce, and which can maintain the social connections?

During a marriage, spouses share equally the family income even if one spouse is actually earning more than the other. At the time of separation, the estate is valued and then split equally. From that point forward these two people have chosen to part ways. They no longer rely on each other or are bound to each other. They are two individuals existing independently in the world. But a man is expected to pay the woman…

Not even necessarily a percentage of actual income either - it can be a percentage of the income the courts think the ex-husband should be earning, because there's this idea that men who are unemployed or underemployed, or even just self-employed and not doing as well as before, are doing it to screw their ex-wife out of the money they should be earning for her. (Little details like the entire industry they were employed in going away, or them being in their 50s and in a line of work with massive ageism, matter less than they perhaps ought. Especially since he probably can't afford a good lawyer.)

Re: Harvard Study: Biggest Factor in Divorce Is Husband's Employment Status

#152

Post by gizmo » Fri, Jul 29, 2016, 11:58 AM UTC

tomp wrote: post #131

ethanbond wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd assume so. As much as HN likes to ridicule the notion of "the patriarchy," this is a component of it that's awfully harmful to men.

HN ridicules the notion of patriarchy because the word itself implies it's somehow men's fault. Which it isn't. Social toles are enforced by most of the society, so we might as well call it "matriarchy", but that would piss feminists off, so we don't.

It implies no such thing. "patriarchy" is a descriptive term in social science and it has nothing to do with fault or blame. We don't choose the society we're born into and obviously we're not responsible for those things that are out of our control. We should of course be held accountable for the choices we make, especially when those choices hurt others.

Re: Harvard Study: Biggest Factor in Divorce Is Husband's Employment Status

#153

Post by GFK_of_xmaspast » Fri, Jul 29, 2016, 12:19 PM UTC

KKKKkkkk1 wrote: post #113

If we realize that the legal system has made the wife essentially a stockholder who is entitled to a stream of dividends from her marriage, and who has a right to sell when she sees fit, it's no surprise that women choose to sell when there is a sustained decline in earnings.

If you assume an absurdity you can deduce all sorts of things.

Re: Harvard Study: Biggest Factor in Divorce Is Husband's Employment Status

#154

Post by tomp » Fri, Jul 29, 2016, 12:23 PM UTC

gizmo wrote: post #152

tomp wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HN ridicules the notion of patriarchy because the word itself implies it's somehow men's fault. Which it isn't. Social toles are enforced by most of the society, so we might as well call it "matriarchy", but that would piss feminists off, so we don't.

It implies no such thing. "patriarchy" is a descriptive term in social science and it has nothing to do with fault or blame. We don't choose the society we're born into and obviously we're not responsible for those things that are out of our control. We should of course be held accountable for the choices we make, especially when those choices hurt others.

It's also a wrong term. "Patriarchy" means a system where women are owned by men (husbands, fathers, brothers), cannot own property, etc. The only reason why feminists chose this term to describe the current social order (which is clearly not a patriarchy in the literal sense) is to elicit negative emotions.

Re: Harvard Study: Biggest Factor in Divorce Is Husband's Employment Status

#155

Post by ethanbond » Fri, Jul 29, 2016, 12:40 PM UTC

tomp wrote: post #131

ethanbond wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd assume so. As much as HN likes to ridicule the notion of "the patriarchy," this is a component of it that's awfully harmful to men.

HN ridicules the notion of patriarchy because the word itself implies it's somehow men's fault. Which it isn't. Social toles are enforced by most of the society, so we might as well call it "matriarchy", but that would piss feminists off, so we don't.

I don't think there's that implication at all. I think what's happening is that this component of patriarchy isn't really a rallying point for many people. That is, there are a lot of people who are vocally upset about other components of patriarchy in which men actually are the primary antagonists, e.g. rape culture. That does not, however, imply that man are the antagonists, nor that women are the victims of every component of patriarchy.

I think more people should be pissed off about this component, too. A man shouldn't feel obligated to be masculine, nor a provider, nor a protector, nor anything he doesn't want to be. Truthfully, more of HN should empathize with this as well. I would be surprised if a very large portion of us didn't grow up being called a variety of epithets for being less athletic, more booky, less masculine and therefore less valuable than the general population.

Ironically enough, it's exactly this component of patriarchy that leads to the aggressive anti-feminist views seen all over this board.

You can call it matriarchy if you want, I don't really care, except that a) no one will know what you're talking about and b) we don't live in a matriarchal society so it doesn't make sense.

Re: Harvard Study: Biggest Factor in Divorce Is Husband's Employment Status

#156

Post by ethanbond » Fri, Jul 29, 2016, 12:41 PM UTC

tomp wrote: post #154

gizmo wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It implies no such thing. "patriarchy" is a descriptive term in social science and it has nothing to do with fault or blame. We don't choose the society we're born into and obviously we're not responsible for those things that are out of our control. We should of course be held accountable for the choices we make, especially when those choices hurt others.

It's also a wrong term. "Patriarchy" means a system where women are owned by men (husbands, fathers, brothers), cannot own property, etc. The only reason why feminists chose this term to describe the current social order (which is clearly not a patriarchy in the literal sense) is to elicit negative emotions.

Uh, no it doesn't.

Patriarchal societies are ones where elder males are the heads of households (generally true) and descent (such as surnames) are passed through the males (generally true).

There are matriarchal societies – including many Native American ones. Those are called matriarchal societies. They're notably different from what we have. I think they're less common today than they ever have been, but patriarchal societies are also "less patriarchal," i.e. males don't own females, as you stated.

Feminists, and everyone with an education, use that term because we do live in a patriarchal society.

Edit: In response to your comment below, you're literally in the comment section of an article discussing the repercussions of men "failing" in their expected social role of head of household.

Re: Harvard Study: Biggest Factor in Divorce Is Husband's Employment Status

#157

Post by ethanbond » Fri, Jul 29, 2016, 12:47 PM UTC

oldmanjay wrote: post #76

ethanbond wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd assume so. As much as HN likes to ridicule the notion of "the patriarchy," this is a component of it that's awfully harmful to men.

There is a vast difference between ridiculing something and not accepting it on faith solely because very passionate people make assertions about it.

Sure, but that's my point. I think a lot of men on here have probably felt this effect. If it's not from "the patriarchy," or something similar by a different name, then what is it from?

You don't have to think that, say, women's fashion changes faster than men's fashion because "the patriarchy!", but it takes some serious aloofness not to see that male dominance in society trickles down to some very strange places indeed. As an example: that a man's employment status is the largest factor in his marital success.

Re: Harvard Study: Biggest Factor in Divorce Is Husband's Employment Status

#158

Post by tempVariable » Fri, Jul 29, 2016, 12:48 PM UTC

KKKKkkkk1 wrote: post #113

If we realize that the legal system has made the wife essentially a stockholder who is entitled to a stream of dividends from her marriage, and who has a right to sell when she sees fit, it's no surprise that women choose to sell when there is a sustained decline in earnings.

Not lying when I say this and I quote a certain wife who I know "... I wish he was drinking, or bad to me or the kids. It would makes things much easier ..."

This is in a situation where she is absolutely not fit for family life and is the one who is unprepared for realities of being a mom and a wife. Literally, this is a person who has not grown up yet and constantly looks for comfort without being able to show it to her family.

I honestly can say that folks get into marriages more by happenstance than solid planning. Maybe I'm wrong. Who knows.

Re: Harvard Study: Biggest Factor in Divorce Is Husband's Employment Status

#159

Post by tomp » Fri, Jul 29, 2016, 1:09 PM UTC

ethanbond wrote: post #156

tomp wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also a wrong term. "Patriarchy" means a system where women are owned by men (husbands, fathers, brothers), cannot own property, etc. The only reason why feminists chose this term to describe the current social order (which is clearly not a patriarchy in the literal sense) is to elicit negative emotions.

Uh, no it doesn't. Patriarchal societies are ones where elder males are the heads of households (generally true) and descent (such as surnames) are passed through the males (generally true). There are matriarchal societies – including many Native American ones. Those are called matriarchal societies. They're notably different from what we have. I think they're less common today than they ever have been, but patriarch…

So... your argument that we do live in a patriarchal society is (1) we get surnames after dads (I mean, really, who cares), and (2) the unsubstantiated assertion that men are the "head" of the household (what does that even mean? that they spend less time with kids? that they earn more money so the wife can spen more? that they're less likely to keep the kids in event of divorce?)? Oh, well, now you've convinced me, of course it's a patriarchy!

Re: Harvard Study: Biggest Factor in Divorce Is Husband's Employment Status

#160

Post by gizmo » Fri, Jul 29, 2016, 1:12 PM UTC

tomp wrote: post #154

gizmo wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It implies no such thing. "patriarchy" is a descriptive term in social science and it has nothing to do with fault or blame. We don't choose the society we're born into and obviously we're not responsible for those things that are out of our control. We should of course be held accountable for the choices we make, especially when those choices hurt others.

It's also a wrong term. "Patriarchy" means a system where women are owned by men (husbands, fathers, brothers), cannot own property, etc. The only reason why feminists chose this term to describe the current social order (which is clearly not a patriarchy in the literal sense) is to elicit negative emotions.

Language evolves so words take on new meanings all the time. It's tedious to invent new words for everything, so you have to use context to figure out which definition is being used. This is completely standard, so I don't see why this is suddenly a problem when it comes to feminist terminology.

Today's society is one where men make most of the laws, own most of the property, earn most of the money, commit the most violence, set the behavioral norms and so on. Everything of importance is controlled by men, white men in particular. Using the word patriarchy to refer a society like that makes perfect sense to me.