Harvard Study: Biggest Factor in Divorce Is Husband's Employment Status • Hacker News Board

Re: Harvard Study: Biggest Factor in Divorce Is Husband's Employment Status

#111

Post by 2muchcoffeeman » Fri, Jul 29, 2016, 3:20 AM UTC

maerF0x0 wrote: post #92

vacri wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My mother was a teacher in Australia in the early '70s. Her pay rate was 2/3rds that of male teachers, simply because of her gender. > I've never been able to reconcile the modern story compared to my own family's history. Look up the term 'anecdata'. You really need to look at things at a demographic level, not just "well, my family...".

You prefaced an attack on anecdata with... "anecdata"

The original poster also didn't really say anything about pay inequality. Just, that women ancestors were financially independent.

Also

> Also add that all of my female ancestors from 1900 onward held good jobs and were largely financially independent (which contradicts the article saying it didn't really happen before 1975).

So rustynails may have trend data for at least the women in their family. And all of them had good jobs and were financially independent? Another data point, is those 80s lego ads featuring girls with their creations. So maybe there is something going on here and society as gone off the rails regarding sexism.

Blog your research rustynails.

Re: Harvard Study: Biggest Factor in Divorce Is Husband's Employment Status

#112

Post by Sacho » Fri, Jul 29, 2016, 3:26 AM UTC

kaitai wrote: post #105

enave wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the MRM seems to be not limited to trying to make things better for men but also endless attacking women ?? Are you implying that feminism is limited to just helping women? Surely you're not that naive. If we were to play a game where each time you post a crazy thing an MRA has said, I have to post two crazy things feminists have said, I'll win that game. I'll win it easily. I'll win it with politicians and academi…

Can you give some links where MRM people support women? Genuinely curious.

Can you give some links where feminists support men? Feminists are concerned with women, the MRM is concerned with men, so the majority of their arguments will be focused on their respective gender.

The negation of "attacking women" isn't "supporting women", it's "not attacking women". Not saying anything at all about women is "not attacking women", but it's not "supporting women".

Re: Harvard Study: Biggest Factor in Divorce Is Husband's Employment Status

#113

Post by KKKKkkkk1 » Fri, Jul 29, 2016, 3:36 AM UTC

If we realize that the legal system has made the wife essentially a stockholder who is entitled to a stream of dividends from her marriage, and who has a right to sell when she sees fit, it's no surprise that women choose to sell when there is a sustained decline in earnings.

Re: Harvard Study: Biggest Factor in Divorce Is Husband's Employment Status

#114

Post by moseandre » Fri, Jul 29, 2016, 3:37 AM UTC

zaroth wrote: post #110

kaitai wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Courts are more favorable to women in some ways, but the economic consequences are generally worse for women. "Worse" and "better" all depends on what endpoint you're looking at, just like all those studies on cholesterol (do you want to lower cholesterol or not die from heart problems?) -- do you want the alimony now or the overall financial health?

According to the 2010 Census only 3% of Americans receiving spousal benefits were men. This is after splitting the estate "equitably". So I really don't understand what you mean by economic consequences are generally worse for women? 97% of the time it's the man's wages being garnished.

You are simplifying to wage garnishing. Probably the parent comment is intimating things like loss of socioeconomic position due to the divorce. If marriages are financially unequal in many cases, fundamentally, then divorce shows that too. But the consequences are like, how well you fare after versus before... the schoolteacher and the banker divorce, and which can maintain the social connections?

Re: Harvard Study: Biggest Factor in Divorce Is Husband's Employment Status

#115

Post by zaroth » Fri, Jul 29, 2016, 3:39 AM UTC

exstudent2 wrote: post #32

mjevans wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I view it as the study went looking for X, and to it's surprise didn't see X, but happened to see statistical significance in Y. However the study did not have the scope to determine why Y occurred. I think the most likely thing that changed over time is Z: the first wave(s) of feminism began to liberate females from the traditional limitations of roles in society. However the true from of feminism is a recognition a…

> Men haven't had that liberation; a large part of society still believes in specific roles and responsibilities for men that coupled females are (at their option) exempted from. This probably leads to increased stress to both individuals and also an increased risk of negative feedback loops for the situation and everyone involved. Sadly that role restructuring, when driven by men, is still almost universally derided…

> Sadly that role restructuring, when driven by men, is still almost universally derided.

Well now, that point couldn't have been more directly substantiated if you tried!

Re: Harvard Study: Biggest Factor in Divorce Is Husband's Employment Status

#116

Post by gozur88 » Fri, Jul 29, 2016, 3:54 AM UTC

MollyR wrote: post #70

zaroth wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For what definition of "healthy"? Few marriages are perfect, and many are quite broken in many respects. Stress drives people to do all sorts of things they might later regret. But if an affair is unhealthy, by that definition literally most marriages are.

Stress doesn't absolve you of responsibility for your actions. Most marriages being degrees of unhealthy doesn't equate to most marriages having affairs in them. If my husband had an affair, child or no child, It would be an instant divorce. I could never trust him again.

I agree with you. No relationship is roses all the time, and cheaters will eventually find an excuse to cheat.

Re: Harvard Study: Biggest Factor in Divorce Is Husband's Employment Status

#117

Post by vacri » Fri, Jul 29, 2016, 3:56 AM UTC

maerF0x0 wrote: post #92

vacri wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My mother was a teacher in Australia in the early '70s. Her pay rate was 2/3rds that of male teachers, simply because of her gender. > I've never been able to reconcile the modern story compared to my own family's history. Look up the term 'anecdata'. You really need to look at things at a demographic level, not just "well, my family...".

You prefaced an attack on anecdata with... "anecdata"

Yes. Masterful, wasn't it? :)

Re: Harvard Study: Biggest Factor in Divorce Is Husband's Employment Status

#118

Post by zaroth » Fri, Jul 29, 2016, 4:01 AM UTC

moseandre wrote: post #114

zaroth wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to the 2010 Census only 3% of Americans receiving spousal benefits were men. This is after splitting the estate "equitably". So I really don't understand what you mean by economic consequences are generally worse for women? 97% of the time it's the man's wages being garnished.

You are simplifying to wage garnishing. Probably the parent comment is intimating things like loss of socioeconomic position due to the divorce. If marriages are financially unequal in many cases, fundamentally, then divorce shows that too. But the consequences are like, how well you fare after versus before... the schoolteacher and the banker divorce, and which can maintain the social connections?

During a marriage, spouses share equally the family income even if one spouse is actually earning more than the other. At the time of separation, the estate is valued and then split equally.

From that point forward these two people have chosen to part ways. They no longer rely on each other or are bound to each other. They are two individuals existing independently in the world.

But a man is expected to pay the woman every week, until one or the other dies, or the woman remarries.

So an independent single divorced woman, her ex is now a paycheck. Almost never the other way around.

It's not a question of, were they better off married, because the marriage is over. Now as singles, what is the consequence of having been married?

The economic consequence of getting married and then divorced for a woman is a weekly payment. The economic consequence for a man getting married and then divorced is a large percentage of income after taxes is confiscated from him.

Re: Harvard Study: Biggest Factor in Divorce Is Husband's Employment Status

#119

Post by vonklaus » Fri, Jul 29, 2016, 4:04 AM UTC

anonbiocoward wrote: post #106

acangiano wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a lot of men tie their identity to their employment so strongly I wonder if the other side of the coin isn't that wives tend to respect their husbands less when these earn less than they do. It could be because it violates a social norm caused by society's gender role expectations. Research found that even employed men who earn a bit less than their wives are affected by higher divorce rate. So we can cast these me…

> it violates a social norm This story hit me pretty hard. While I was in medical school, my wife's family, especially her mother, routinely encouraged her to divorce me. We had two small kids, and I had gone on job interviews and seen the offers I was getting without a graduate degree, despite a BS in physics and 7 years of experience. It was obvious to everyone that medical school was the right course of action in…

Interesting. Clearly there were hardships involved and getting an MD is a non-trivial financial and time commitment. However, at least in popular culture, an MD is a highly respected career path and often the joked about target for 'gold diggers'. Sure, it isn't marry a student, but it is a pretty well regarded track socially, financially and educationally.

Re: Harvard Study: Biggest Factor in Divorce Is Husband's Employment Status

#120

Post by zaroth » Fri, Jul 29, 2016, 4:12 AM UTC

moseandre wrote: post #114

zaroth wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to the 2010 Census only 3% of Americans receiving spousal benefits were men. This is after splitting the estate "equitably". So I really don't understand what you mean by economic consequences are generally worse for women? 97% of the time it's the man's wages being garnished.

You are simplifying to wage garnishing. Probably the parent comment is intimating things like loss of socioeconomic position due to the divorce. If marriages are financially unequal in many cases, fundamentally, then divorce shows that too. But the consequences are like, how well you fare after versus before... the schoolteacher and the banker divorce, and which can maintain the social connections?

Here's another way to think of it...The economics of a marriage are just this: two people promising to be equals.

The man and woman give to each other everything they have; economic, socioeconomic, mind, body, and soul. There is perfect economy in this Union.

After such a union is dissolved, from one perspective both have lost half of everything. Both are a fraction of what they once were. The loss is staggering -- decimated five times over. But from another perspective, two souls are parting ways. They unwind their affairs and equitably share them. And walk away.

Except not for the man, for he is still bound by law to support the woman with weekly payments till he or she shall die, or she shall find another to wed.

Is this "chivalry" not deeply insulting to feminists?