Dark Patterns are designed to confuse and enroll • Hacker News Board

Re: Dark Patterns are designed to confuse and enroll

#141

Post by freshhawk » Thu, Jul 28, 2016, 6:50 PM UTC

bad_user wrote: post #122

jonlucc wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This looks remarkably similar to Audible's unsubscribe flow. I was a member, but I've had less time to listen and increased my podcast count, so I decided to cancel and pick it back up in a year or so. They ask a million times if you're sure and then offer another million other options (suspend the account for a few months, after which they will automatically charge you again). After you get through that, including a…

What really pissed me off about Audible is that they offered me a special offer after initiating the cancellation process, in a fully automated process. Maybe other people like that, but this basically tells me that their good customers pay more than they have to, because they are fools that don't complain, possibly subsidizing the grumpy ones. And I find this to be totally unacceptable. For anybody interested in an…

You only get that special offer the first time you cancel as far as I can tell. But really, nothing about Audible is in any way defensible, I know this because I happily tried to take advantage of that special offer thing.

Re: Dark Patterns are designed to confuse and enroll

#142

Post by cmdrfred » Thu, Jul 28, 2016, 6:52 PM UTC

nitrogen wrote: post #117

notatoad wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is basically what any discussion on dark patterns i have ever seen devolves into: "a service i use has an interaction i don't like. it's a dark pattern." the whole term is basically a meaningless buzzword now. requiring an email address to access a service is no more of a dark pattern than requiring payment to access a service. they're taking something of value in exchange for providing something of value. it's…

Loading the content then redirecting to or popping over an uncloseable email form is a bait and switch, especially if you are coming from a search engine result.

Exactly, its a SEO scam. I'm sure Google will figure out a way to stop it and give them the 40th page result they deserve.

Re: Dark Patterns are designed to confuse and enroll

#143

Post by someone7x » Thu, Jul 28, 2016, 6:53 PM UTC

crd4tn4jky wrote: post #129

Bartweiss wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have yet to work out whether "limited hours for an automated system" is a dark pattern, or sheer stupidity. The most horrifying variant I've seen recently was a government website that kept 9am-5pm hours. No human interaction or real-time events anywhere, but logins were locked after business hours. I'm guessing they didn't want to arrange special downtime periods for changes, and the only alternative they could th…

Whenever I see a page like that, I imagine there is a guy in a low-rise building in Sacramento. Every day he arrives at work at 9 am, switches on the computer in the corner of his office, and then he switches it off when he goes home. After 20 years he will retire with a pension and move to South Lake Tahoe.

This is how I came to understand the concept of crab mentality.

In Sacramento, landing a "state job" is kinda like winning the lottery because you know you're set for life. What's not to like about a job with no perceived accountability or risk and a perceived loot table that just gets better with time.

The inevitable flip side are all the "losers" of the lottery who have to suffer the vagaries of market forces. What's not to dislike about someone else lucking their way into having all those wonderful things?

There's a strange love/hate relationship with civil service in Sacramento, at least from my own experiences.

Re: Dark Patterns are designed to confuse and enroll

#144

Post by devishard » Thu, Jul 28, 2016, 7:12 PM UTC

notatoad wrote: post #87

wldcordeiro wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, AllTrails recently went with a dark-pattern, want to see any info on the trail? Sign-up. If you don't you'll get a brief flash of the detail page before redirecting to a sign-up form.

This is basically what any discussion on dark patterns i have ever seen devolves into: "a service i use has an interaction i don't like. it's a dark pattern." the whole term is basically a meaningless buzzword now. requiring an email address to access a service is no more of a dark pattern than requiring payment to access a service. they're taking something of value in exchange for providing something of value. it's…

There is literally no way to use the email they took from me that isn't a dark pattern.

Re: Dark Patterns are designed to confuse and enroll

#145

Post by thereact » Thu, Jul 28, 2016, 7:15 PM UTC

Some good examples of intentionally misleading web design patterns here.

As a counter, for those looking to create GOOD UI and UX or want to try and avoid unintentionally bad designs, I wholeheartedly recommend this video on UI tenets and traps: https://vimeo.com/168472466

Re: Dark Patterns are designed to confuse and enroll

#146

Post by vlunkr » Thu, Jul 28, 2016, 7:17 PM UTC

someone7x wrote: post #12

The thing about dark patterns is that feels like an abuse of the commons. Because of scummy practices like this I am absolutely less willing to explore a site that requests my email, or buy something from a random site (I just see if it's on amazon and buy it there). For example, a few days ago there was a Show HN about PlateJoy, which sounded really interesting. But, the only way I could learn about it was to enter…

I don't think Amazon is completely innocent either. I signed up for prime accidentally recently because EVERY time you buy something they try to sell you prime for a year and I guess I misread something. They canceled and refunded after an email, but it was still obnoxious.

Re: Dark Patterns are designed to confuse and enroll

#147

Post by blocktuw » Thu, Jul 28, 2016, 7:39 PM UTC

ivraatiems wrote: post #54

perspectivep wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're upset that search got rebranded to Cortana? It can definitely search your entire PC. I just typed the name of a script I have sitting on my D: drive and pressed enter and it opened it.

It can't. I have a Super User post [1] that describes the problem in detail. Windows Search and Cortana appear to be two separate things. If what I describe in my post is working on your computer, we should talk... I need to find a solution to this issue and Microsoft Support couldn't help. Can you tell me - do you have Cortana's voice stuff enabled? Do you have her "learning" about you enabled in settings? Did you u…

I use the command WIN + q which launches the Windows "Search the web and Windows" menu/dialog which I can type a local file name or installed application and quickly open items.

Re: Dark Patterns are designed to confuse and enroll

#148

Post by roghummal » Thu, Jul 28, 2016, 8:27 PM UTC

Bartweiss wrote: post #110

chimprich wrote: post #92

One pattern I've seen recently that's been increasingly prevalent (but I haven't seen discussed anywhere) is of a form where a site gives you two options in a dialog box along the lines of: Would you like to sign up to our newsletter? o [[[ OK!! ]]] o No I'm an idiot and I don't want to save money or hear about the latest job offers that may change my life (Exaggerated slightly.) I'm not sure this if this technically…

I would argue that it's a dark pattern if that's the only way past the form. A lot of sites using that technique also let you click an X button or click the darkened non-form area to continue. If that's supported, I always choose it as a tiny protest (in hopes that someone actually profiles how click-outs are happening). If you make users click something obnoxious and self-deprecating to continue, then I'd certainly…

>A lot of sites using that technique also let you click an X button or click the darkened non-form area to continue. If that's supported, I always choose it as a tiny protest (in hopes that someone actually profiles how click-outs are happening).

I click the X/non-form area because I'm too lazy to read the text and figure out which of the buttons won't lead me to another form/sign me up/whatever.

If they ever start making that X the "haha, got you" I'll have to start paying more attention. That'll suck.

Re: Dark Patterns are designed to confuse and enroll

#149

Post by nommm-nommm » Thu, Jul 28, 2016, 8:32 PM UTC

heywire wrote: post #31

nommm-nommm wrote: post #7

Those extra fees at the very end infuriate me the most - it makes comparison shopping impossible. Thats including not giving me a shipping estimate until after I enter my shipping address and payment info. I want to know what I am going to pay before entering my payment details!! Hotel "resort fees" and cable or Internet subscriptions are the worst offenders, I honestly can't believe either is legal.

As someone currently paying a $22/day parking fee at a hotel, I know exactly what you mean. However, in my case it was a booking through Hotwire, so I didn't even know the hotel name in advance.

22 dollars is absolutely ridiculous for parking (except maybe in NYC...) but at least you can opt out of parking by not bringing a car. "Resort fees" are not optional thus should be included with the cost of the room. Same with booking/processing fees when buying tickets.

Re: Dark Patterns are designed to confuse and enroll

#150

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jul 28, 2016, 8:33 PM UTC

stanmancan wrote: post #79

kordless wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really shouldn't ask leading questions, because they are technically equivalent to blaming statements. What I meant was that "it does NOT matter" whether it's a UX bug or an intentional pattern. The effects can be the same. If a company doesn't have a lot of money to produce a good UX because they spent it all on trips up to Tahoe for a "workcation", and people rely on that software, it's the same damn thing no mat…

Requiring someone to log in to use your site or service is not a dark pattern though. There's nothing nefarious going on there. As another poster said somewhere in this chain, if upon signing up you have to give your life away via the TOS, or there's pre-checked boxes signing you up for mailing lists, those are dark patterns. Simply requiring a user sign up is not.

[deleted]