Dark Patterns are designed to confuse and enroll • Hacker News Board

Re: Dark Patterns are designed to confuse and enroll

#121

Post by Spooky23 » Thu, Jul 28, 2016, 5:37 PM UTC

ivraatiems wrote: post #22

sp332 wrote: post #2

Not just the web either. This morning Cortana turned green and said "Oh hey!" in my taskbar. I clicked it and it gave me the regular interface - there was no alert or anything, they just wanted to boost their Cortana interaction numbers for the day. That's wasting my time and making it less likely that I will pay attention if there is an actual alert later.

I can't stand Cortana. I honestly, genuinely don't want to talk to my computer. I realize I might be in the minority on that, but I actually type fast enough and know what I'm doing enough not to need to ask an "assistant" to do it for me. Unless and until my computer is Samantha from Her , I don't need to talk to it. What's worse, Cortana has ruined Windows search. Searching from the Start Menu is way less expansive…

I not looking forward to the day when Apple dumbs down spotlight with Siri. OS X searching is fantabulous for me.

Re: Dark Patterns are designed to confuse and enroll

#122

Post by bad_user » Thu, Jul 28, 2016, 5:37 PM UTC

jonlucc wrote: post #96

yedpodtrzitko wrote: post #53

The worst thing I've seen is G2A Shield - it takes 10 steps to deactivate it, and each step has the "cancel" button much more dominant than the "continue" button, see: http://imgur.com/a/PUwPC

This looks remarkably similar to Audible's unsubscribe flow. I was a member, but I've had less time to listen and increased my podcast count, so I decided to cancel and pick it back up in a year or so. They ask a million times if you're sure and then offer another million other options (suspend the account for a few months, after which they will automatically charge you again). After you get through that, including a…

What really pissed me off about Audible is that they offered me a special offer after initiating the cancellation process, in a fully automated process.

Maybe other people like that, but this basically tells me that their good customers pay more than they have to, because they are fools that don't complain, possibly subsidizing the grumpy ones. And I find this to be totally unacceptable.

For anybody interested in an Audible alternative, check this out: http://downpour.com

That's DRM-free, high quality audio books at comparable prices.

Re: Dark Patterns are designed to confuse and enroll

#123

Post by anexprogrammer » Thu, Jul 28, 2016, 5:39 PM UTC

jonlucc wrote: post #96

yedpodtrzitko wrote: post #53

The worst thing I've seen is G2A Shield - it takes 10 steps to deactivate it, and each step has the "cancel" button much more dominant than the "continue" button, see: http://imgur.com/a/PUwPC

This looks remarkably similar to Audible's unsubscribe flow. I was a member, but I've had less time to listen and increased my podcast count, so I decided to cancel and pick it back up in a year or so. They ask a million times if you're sure and then offer another million other options (suspend the account for a few months, after which they will automatically charge you again). After you get through that, including a…

Yep. I unsubscribed because of less time to listen and being increasingly unhappy with the quality of their narrators (maybe I was just unlucky, but too many poor narrators often having strong unpleasant tones was spoiling enjoyment of too many books).

By the time I got to the end of the endless "are you really sure about this" and one time offer pages I was so annoyed I decided I'd never renew.

Re: Dark Patterns are designed to confuse and enroll

#124

Post by Spooky23 » Thu, Jul 28, 2016, 5:47 PM UTC

ipsin wrote: post #74

amelius wrote: post #32

> Though perhaps the worst class of dark pattern is forced continuity, the common practice of collecting credit card details for a free trial and then automatically billing users for a paid service without an adequate reminder. The fact that this is even possible makes me feel like I'm in the middle ages.

Oh God, there's a special place in hell for stamps.com. I did not read the fine print, but made the mistake of thinking that it was a partnership with USPS and did not incur extra fees (like a crazy $13 monthly fee, even if you're not using the service). By the time I discovered that, I also discovered that you can sign up on line, but you have to cancel by phone (or "being on hold", I discovered it). Seriously. Neve…

I never understood why stamps.com existed.

* Anything that isn't first class mail can be accommodated by USPS.com, Paypal and others.

* If you mail enough letters to justify a label printer, you can get a better deal on a meter.

* If you hate going to the post office, you can spend the same money that you spend on Stamps.com bullshit to buy a bunch of stamps from the post office, which are now good forever.

My mom fell into this trap a few years ago. The easiest way to disengage: Use a good credit card like Amex. Call twice, hold for 60 seconds, hang up. Dispute the charge. Do this 2-3x.

Re: Dark Patterns are designed to confuse and enroll

#125

Post by jimrandomh » Thu, Jul 28, 2016, 5:47 PM UTC

People should use the credit card dispute process more often. If a company has made it unreasonably difficult to cancel, or charged money that you didn't actually agree to pay (because they hid the notice too well), that's exactly what chargebacks are for.

Re: Dark Patterns are designed to confuse and enroll

#126

Post by angersock » Thu, Jul 28, 2016, 5:48 PM UTC

notatoad wrote: post #87

wldcordeiro wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, AllTrails recently went with a dark-pattern, want to see any info on the trail? Sign-up. If you don't you'll get a brief flash of the detail page before redirecting to a sign-up form.

This is basically what any discussion on dark patterns i have ever seen devolves into: "a service i use has an interaction i don't like. it's a dark pattern." the whole term is basically a meaningless buzzword now. requiring an email address to access a service is no more of a dark pattern than requiring payment to access a service. they're taking something of value in exchange for providing something of value. it's…

There is no guarantee that what they're providing will be anything of value--and in fact, usually isn't.

Emails on the other hand can reliably fetch prices/be put to use.

Re: Dark Patterns are designed to confuse and enroll

#127

Post by anexprogrammer » Thu, Jul 28, 2016, 5:50 PM UTC

amelius wrote: post #32

> Though perhaps the worst class of dark pattern is forced continuity, the common practice of collecting credit card details for a free trial and then automatically billing users for a paid service without an adequate reminder. The fact that this is even possible makes me feel like I'm in the middle ages.

That one has been going since the middle ages.

It used to be common for record clubs, book clubs, magazine subscriptions etc.

Fill in this bank debit form, get two months trial subscription, if you do nothing we'll charge you 14 months for your first year and your trial period. (The more reputable places would give a genuine free trial,but it wasn't uncommon for the trial to be charged).

Re: Dark Patterns are designed to confuse and enroll

#128

Post by sliverstorm » Thu, Jul 28, 2016, 5:50 PM UTC

Bartweiss wrote: post #93

partiallypro wrote: post #85

Stamps.com is so scammy. You sign up for a free trial, then get enrolled without asking you into their payment plan. Then when you go to cancel, you can't. You have to call. But guess what? It has weird hours. When you finally do call during their hours it's a machine that you're talking to, not a person. Ok, so you have hours of when I can cancel...clearly not because you have shift hours, since I'm talking to a mac…

I have yet to work out whether "limited hours for an automated system" is a dark pattern, or sheer stupidity. The most horrifying variant I've seen recently was a government website that kept 9am-5pm hours. No human interaction or real-time events anywhere, but logins were locked after business hours. I'm guessing they didn't want to arrange special downtime periods for changes, and the only alternative they could th…

In the case of the website, could also be security, or enforced work-life balance...?

Re: Dark Patterns are designed to confuse and enroll

#129

Post by crd4tn4jky » Thu, Jul 28, 2016, 5:52 PM UTC

Bartweiss wrote: post #93

partiallypro wrote: post #85

Stamps.com is so scammy. You sign up for a free trial, then get enrolled without asking you into their payment plan. Then when you go to cancel, you can't. You have to call. But guess what? It has weird hours. When you finally do call during their hours it's a machine that you're talking to, not a person. Ok, so you have hours of when I can cancel...clearly not because you have shift hours, since I'm talking to a mac…

I have yet to work out whether "limited hours for an automated system" is a dark pattern, or sheer stupidity. The most horrifying variant I've seen recently was a government website that kept 9am-5pm hours. No human interaction or real-time events anywhere, but logins were locked after business hours. I'm guessing they didn't want to arrange special downtime periods for changes, and the only alternative they could th…

Whenever I see a page like that, I imagine there is a guy in a low-rise building in Sacramento. Every day he arrives at work at 9 am, switches on the computer in the corner of his office, and then he switches it off when he goes home. After 20 years he will retire with a pension and move to South Lake Tahoe.

Re: Dark Patterns are designed to confuse and enroll

#130

Post by sliverstorm » Thu, Jul 28, 2016, 5:53 PM UTC

angersock wrote: post #126

notatoad wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is basically what any discussion on dark patterns i have ever seen devolves into: "a service i use has an interaction i don't like. it's a dark pattern." the whole term is basically a meaningless buzzword now. requiring an email address to access a service is no more of a dark pattern than requiring payment to access a service. they're taking something of value in exchange for providing something of value. it's…

There is no guarantee that what they're providing will be anything of value--and in fact, usually isn't. Emails on the other hand can reliably fetch prices/be put to use.

It's my impression that a dark pattern is not so much a con, and more like when a ballot is intentionally printed in such a way that a voter intending to vote for Obama is misled and unwittingly marks the ballot for Romney instead, or vica versa.