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Why do so few humans kill themselves?

theviewfromhellyes.wordpress.com

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Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dislike these kinds of explanations because they seem like ex post facto rationalizations. An explanation that could have gone both ways explains nothing: * Women stop having children after 40 because it's more important to raise the children you already have. * Women don't stop having children after 40 because bearing more offspring increases your chances of survival. Your explanation barely makes sense even on it…

> Your explanation barely makes sense even on its own merits. Surely, if nature wanted us to have N children and then take care of them, it would have set a cutoff on N To talk about what nature "wants" is probably not very helpful. I can't speak for the idea that menopause exists because it is useful for old women nurture their grandchildren, but tendencies like it exist simply because they are helpful enough in an…

> I can't speak for the idea that menopause exists because it is useful for old women nurture their grandchildren

Exactly. The most we can say is "it's generally useful so it tends to happen". However, evolutionary biologists tend to paint their explanations with a certainty that just isn't there, and can look at any old random thing and say "well, this is obviously because X!".

"Evolution made spiders eat their mates because it makes sense that they would want to preserve energy". Yes, but it also makes sense that the mates would stick around to feed the offspring, otherwise all species would kill the males after mating. We aren't as sure about why things are the way they are as evobio would have us believe, and not to mention evobio explanations for human psychology, which are usually completely ludicrous.

In general, the process for explaining things using evolutionary biology seems to be:

* Look at behaviour.

* Find one advantage, however small, of said behaviour, regardless of disadvantages.

* Say "well obviously this behaviour evolved like this because of that advantage".

* Publish.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#152
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well in society artificial selection seems to have much more influence on us.

Society is natural.

Government, laws, science, technology, management? Do all those things appear in nature without our initiative? They seem to be made by humans.

I don't really know. Ultimately you can argue that everything happening in the universe is natural, but I would make a difference between things created by intelligent creatures and the things that appears with natural selection. That doesn't involve intelligent design.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#153
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In addition to a desire to live, not everyone views suffering as the worst possible thing. If I had to be in serious pain every day but could keep doing many things I would rather keep living with the pain. The loss in experience is worse than any level of pain. For the obvious counterpoint: I say that from experience not naivete. I've had a nerve in my hand accidentally sliced lengthwise (for a significant length) b…

Out of curiosity - was the pain fixed when you woke back up? Because brief, intense pain like that is one thing, but experiencing pain all day, everyday is a very different beast. Even if it's a tenth of the pain that you felt, that kind of thing really wears on you, especially after years and years and no help from doctors.

Oh and to answer the direct question, I was given strict orders from the doctor to not go off of serious pain meds (something schedule 2, I don't remember what) for 2 weeks out of the heart attack danger. I took them for about a week before forgetting about it.

It was down to just like broken bone painful then so I decided to just deal with it so I could learn how to tolerate severe pain (I was 14 at the time), I figured it would be a useful skill. My parents were a little shocked that I decided to deal with it. I passed the time reading c++ books.

The pain did make me take a lot of breaks and sleep to bring my willpower back.

I still feel it now, but it's more like the feeling of a minor cut on your finger.

Honestly, I think I have the opposite problem. Pain hasn't been sufficient for me to avoid injury. I probably could have avoided many issues if I listened to it a little.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but that patients with chronic pain are much more likely to consider suicide is an easily googlable fact. That chronic pain links with depression, which further reduces probability of "would rather keep living" is, too. Also, the "(most probably)" part of that sentence in my previous comment is there specifically to show that I'm not making absolute statements...

The fact that given a population of people more of them will consider suicide with chronic pain does not mean ALL people will. Some of us won't.

True, of course. I edited my post above.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#155
post #19

While interesting, this article seems to ignore the possibility that most people simply have a very strong desire to live. It assumes that if someone is suffering, and death would end that suffering, then suicide makes sense, and something weird must be going on to make people keep going. But this really doesn't make sense. The entire concept of suffering exists merely to keep us alive. We experience pain and despair…

In addition to a desire to live, not everyone views suffering as the worst possible thing. If I had to be in serious pain every day but could keep doing many things I would rather keep living with the pain. The loss in experience is worse than any level of pain. For the obvious counterpoint: I say that from experience not naivete. I've had a nerve in my hand accidentally sliced lengthwise (for a significant length) b…

I get myself into interesting positions quite often by arguing this exact thing. Suffering is a bit of information about the state of your body/mind etc. I can imagine the best life possible, with the most contribution to society, being a huge source of pain and suffering.

Generally speaking, of course, that's not a safe bet. Suffering tends to be associated with damage and psychological stress, which are rarely good things. I'd take 8/10 pain every day for the next 40 years though over something like dimentia or advanced alzheimers.

That said, I'd also take pain over severe depression. That shit sucks.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#156
post #19

While interesting, this article seems to ignore the possibility that most people simply have a very strong desire to live. It assumes that if someone is suffering, and death would end that suffering, then suicide makes sense, and something weird must be going on to make people keep going. But this really doesn't make sense. The entire concept of suffering exists merely to keep us alive. We experience pain and despair…

> While interesting, this article seems to ignore the possibility that most people simply have a very strong desire to live.

Alternatively: People can have goals related to the actual outside state of the world, rather than their own internal state. If you can only conceptualize goals in terms of your own internal state, then sure, you might kill yourself to avoid pain, or wirehead yourself at the first opportunity.

But if your actual goals are out there in the world, then it's essentially as you say above. Dying reduces your influence on the world. If you're not alive, it's much harder to steer the world to your desired state. Survival is a convergent instrumental goal, for people as much as for AIs.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#157
post #19

While interesting, this article seems to ignore the possibility that most people simply have a very strong desire to live. It assumes that if someone is suffering, and death would end that suffering, then suicide makes sense, and something weird must be going on to make people keep going. But this really doesn't make sense. The entire concept of suffering exists merely to keep us alive. We experience pain and despair…

In addition to a desire to live, not everyone views suffering as the worst possible thing. If I had to be in serious pain every day but could keep doing many things I would rather keep living with the pain. The loss in experience is worse than any level of pain. For the obvious counterpoint: I say that from experience not naivete. I've had a nerve in my hand accidentally sliced lengthwise (for a significant length) b…

Sounds like the importance of pleasure and enjoyment is greater than the importance of pain and suffering.

I wonder if you could model the "suicide critical point" as the point at which the importance of pain is greater than the importance of pleasure.

Somebody suffering and in pain but hopeful is not likely to commit suicide. Someone with a good, stable life and/or future but fixated on negative aspects or thinkings may be more inclined for suicide.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#158
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of curiosity - was the pain fixed when you woke back up? Because brief, intense pain like that is one thing, but experiencing pain all day, everyday is a very different beast. Even if it's a tenth of the pain that you felt, that kind of thing really wears on you, especially after years and years and no help from doctors.

I've also torn three ligaments (complete separation) in my ankle and they hurt more than 1/10th of that every day. Honestly I really don't care about the pain. It bothers people around me much more that I limp severely than it bothers me that I hurt. It's not something I care to think about because when I do then I feel self-pity.

One additional note from my side: if you're able to think about anything else than the pain without the painkillers, then my post above does not relate to you at all.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#159

  >Close to 100% of humans could suicide, and yet ‘only’ about 1.4% do
Very bad and misleading wording. 1.4% here is of total number of deaths, not total number of people. Also, both numbers seem untrue. Wiki says[1] "approximately 0.5% to 1.4% of people die by suicide".

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide#Epidemiology

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#160
This question is much more interesting when you realize that modern neuroscience is (slowly) going more and more into area that there is no free will in humans.

What is a reason to live if they are not your decisions driving it? Skipping over all (judical etc) consequences, if this is true, then life has no sense and it's more/less ok to end it - what's funny, suicide would also not be your (as in free will) decision... Meaning this is a time bomb programmed into any thinking brain (and any AI as, what's double funny, this logic also applies to any AI).

Dodge that homo sapiens :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_free_will

https://www.amazon.com/Free-Will-Sam-Harris/dp/1451683405

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