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Why do so few humans kill themselves?

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Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#121

Post by boomlinde »

StavrosK wrote: post #31
hasenj wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on how much your children need you actually. I've read somewhere that part of the reason women lose ability to bear children past around 40 is so they can take care of their grand children because that is usually more important at that point from an evolutionary point of view. It might have been a mere speculation but it kind of makes sense. Rather than take the time to bare and raise one child, that time is…

I dislike these kinds of explanations because they seem like ex post facto rationalizations. An explanation that could have gone both ways explains nothing: * Women stop having children after 40 because it's more important to raise the children you already have. * Women don't stop having children after 40 because bearing more offspring increases your chances of survival. Your explanation barely makes sense even on it…

> Your explanation barely makes sense even on its own merits. Surely, if nature wanted us to have N children and then take care of them, it would have set a cutoff on N

To talk about what nature "wants" is probably not very helpful. I can't speak for the idea that menopause exists because it is useful for old women nurture their grandchildren, but tendencies like it exist simply because they are helpful enough in an evolutionary sense.

I mean, why should we want to have sex without reproducing? If nature "wanted" us to have children, why not make that coincide exactly with our sex drive? It's because no one designs these things or thinks of logical solutions. Having a sex drive regardless of individually wanting to have children works to a genetically beneficial end either way.

> Is it to their evolutionary advantage to care for the children they didn't have?

Their evolutionary advantage? How can an individual gain an evolutionary advantage in itself? When I'm dead, I'm dead. Nothing can be an advantage or a disadvantage to me as an individual at that point. The process of evolution stretches across generations and concerns things that do sustain for several generations, like genes.

Why would a spider want to mate if it almost always gets eaten immediately after doing so? How is it to their individual advantage to be eaten? Why would bees be born without reproductive capabilities? It's because these are genetically beneficial traits, not because the individuals themselves will gain from it.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#122

Post by intoverflow2 »

onetwotree wrote: post #117

A mistake and an insight. The idea that white men have the highest suicide rate is misleading - they have the highest rate of success, which is very likely because they are the most likely to own guns, which are far and away the most effective and effortless way to commit suicide. Effortlessness is important, because depression makes planning so difficult. FWIW I'd really appreciate it if we could not turn this into…

> which is very likely because they are the most likely to own guns

America is not the world

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#123

Post by VSerge »

It's always strange to see someone wondering whether skin pigmentation has something to do with something completely unrelated like mental health or suicide rate, when so many other factors with demonstrably more impact come into play (social, economic, etc).

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#124

Post by toolz »

lawless123 wrote: post #119
toolz wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you hope that? What do you gain by polarizing an entire group of people based on something as inconsequential as fluoride? Are you unable to brush your own teeth and would suffer great harm if they stopped profiting from companies who pay to dump their fluoride waste into our water supply? Crazy ideas only get crazier when you don't calmly address them with education and instead find some weird necessity to…

also vaccines..

Hmm, vaccines are in a slightly different camp as they are most effective when everyone uses them. I will say that the anti-anti-vaccine crowd does much more harm than good by spreading pro-vaccine propaganda. Believe it or not, not every vaccine created has been effective and harmless and by generalizing your hate speeches (on both sides) instead of educating you only cause people to make emotional decisions rather than rational decisions.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#125

Post by justratsinacoat »

razorunreal wrote: post #105

What if not being depressed is the beneficial adaptation? It would not surprise me if many depressed people have a more accurate view of the world and their place in it. When someone's expectations do not match reality it's not normally considered intelligent, but positivity seems unrealistic, common and beneficial to survival.

>What if not being depressed is the beneficial adaptation? It would not surprise me if many depressed people have a more accurate view of the world and their place in it

It's funny that you should mention that...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depressive_realism

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#126

Post by ucaetano »

ultramancool wrote: post #97
Retric wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lithium might be an essential micronutrient, so it may simply be treating a common problem. Much like how milk is fortified with Vitamin D. PS: There is little (ed: zero) evidence that Lithium is and the human body puts effort into removing it. But, it's also common in the environment and may have positive impacts at low levels so it's more debatable than you might think.

Perhaps, but if it's having a mental effect of notable size it still causes me concern. If you're happy with your current behaviors I don't see why you'd want it. Wouldn't it be better for individuals to just opt to take it themselves, encourage usage of those already existing environmental sources, etc?

My close experience with depression (not myself) is that it can takes years for someone to accept the thought of being depressed, and even more time to seek help.

Sadly, there's too much prejudice and taboo over mental health in our society. People treat it as a badge of shame, not a disease.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#127

Post by klibertp »

Practicality wrote: post #62
mikeash wrote: post #19

While interesting, this article seems to ignore the possibility that most people simply have a very strong desire to live. It assumes that if someone is suffering, and death would end that suffering, then suicide makes sense, and something weird must be going on to make people keep going. But this really doesn't make sense. The entire concept of suffering exists merely to keep us alive. We experience pain and despair…

In addition to a desire to live, not everyone views suffering as the worst possible thing. If I had to be in serious pain every day but could keep doing many things I would rather keep living with the pain. The loss in experience is worse than any level of pain. For the obvious counterpoint: I say that from experience not naivete. I've had a nerve in my hand accidentally sliced lengthwise (for a significant length) b…

> If I had to be in serious pain every day but could keep doing many things I would rather keep living with the pain.

Scratch that: ~~~No, you (most probably) wouldn't.~~~

EDIT: this post is about severe chronic pain. Think cancer, or a serious toothache which lasts for years. And it's not meant to discuss the specific situation of the parent! I'm talking in general. I also agree that not 100% patients with severe chronic pain will consider suicide, however the percentage of people considering suicide in such group is much higher than in the rest of the population.

You may believe so right now, but that's totally irrelevant: just as you were unable to imagine "how much pain it was possible to feel" before your experience, you are unable to imagine what a serious, chronic pain can do to you.

Chronic pain is a lot like depression: there's no relief, no hope, nothing you can do to ever feel any better. Assuming that you'd be able to do anything - and that doing that would even make you happy - is... well, very improbable, to say the least.

> Anyway the point is, not everyone is afraid of pain and suffering. Especially not to the point that suicide would even be considered.

Sure, it's easy to be brave in the face of the unknown. It's a lot harder to be brave once you see what "chronic pain" really means. And there is no notion of being brave (or not) once it actually happens to you - there's only despair and suffering. Really, only that. Nothing else, at all.

We have a lot of pain management methods at our disposal now and, in many cases, it's possible to reduce the symptoms and make the patient feel "well enough". Without such help, however, it's only a matter of time before (most of) the patient considers suicide - no matter how brave and "suffering accepting" he was before.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#128

Post by spdustin »

mikeash wrote: post #77
spdustin wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You did see that I listed other options, right?

Does it matter? There are plenty of people suffering from problems that can't be fixed by pills or therapy and who are not mentally capable of suicide. Suffering may be a choice for some, but it is not a choice for many.

I give up; you've checked out of the conversation and I don't believe I'm effectively choosing the words to match my feelings. Sorry if I caused any angst.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#129

Post by onetwotree »

intoverflow2 wrote: post #122
onetwotree wrote: post #117

A mistake and an insight. The idea that white men have the highest suicide rate is misleading - they have the highest rate of success, which is very likely because they are the most likely to own guns, which are far and away the most effective and effortless way to commit suicide. Effortlessness is important, because depression makes planning so difficult. FWIW I'd really appreciate it if we could not turn this into…

> which is very likely because they are the most likely to own guns America is not the world

I think the data were taken among Americans (they included Native Americans). You're right though, and looking at data from other countries with stronger gun restrictions would be an interesting way to check this hypothesis.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#130

Post by Houshalter »

VSerge wrote: post #123

It's always strange to see someone wondering whether skin pigmentation has something to do with something completely unrelated like mental health or suicide rate, when so many other factors with demonstrably more impact come into play (social, economic, etc).

Yes it's not like skin pigmentation correlates with anything at all. The author is surely suggesting that skin color is the cause and that's just silly.
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