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Why do so few humans kill themselves?

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Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#41

Post by zamalek »

tribune wrote: post #15

Remember that it's technically a valid evolutionary strategy to live to, say, 25, have a few kids, then off yourself. Suicide before reproduction is all that would be selected against.

Right, though that doesn't mean that there is anything selecting for suicide either. It's an uncontrolled variable.

Some species to kill of one parent to provide the offspring with energy. Maybe with more mass extinction events you'd start finding species that die of natural causes when population growth becomes too large.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#42

Post by marcosdumay »

nibs wrote: post #36
_jgvg wrote: post #23

Maybe we should just add lithium to the water supply, although that would drive conspiracy theorists crazy! http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1699579 "Using data for 27 Texas counties from 1978-1987, it is shown that the incidence rates of suicide, homicide, and rape are significantly higher in counties whose drinking water supplies contain little or no lithium than in counties with water lithium levels ranging from…

I made that argument in a prior thread and people were really, really against it. Despite the abundance of evidence, from that study and the Japanese one [1]. I think Zinc would make a good addition too re: suicide [2]. There are two other large scale studies like this for lithium, both confirming the findings. One from Greece [3] and one from Argentina (can't find it...) [1]: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19407…

Do take varying diets and local culture in consideration when you push for such stuff. Lithium is almost certainly harmless, but adding zinc to the water will probably cause health problems for some people.

It may be a case of doing it, and warning people not to eat too much of it. But you need actual research to discover that.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#43

Post by a3n »

hasenj wrote: post #28
tmcpro wrote: post #25

the highest suicide rate is among people 85 years or older. With the advancement of healthcare people are living longer. So the rate of suicide amongst younger demographics most likely has declined slightly

Interesting. I've often contemplated about it. I don't think I want to live past 80. I mean unless there would be a medical revolution where you can retain youth or slow down aging significantly.

Get back to us when you turn 80. :)

People's experience change their perspective. What's important to you now will change. What you're able to appreciate changes.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#44

Post by anexprogrammer »

return0 wrote: post #32

> virtually all adults have the intellectual wherewithal to take their own lives Do they? It's one thing to say 'i dont want to live' or "i wish i was dead", and another to actually go through the processes to do that. Suicide killers for example, need a strong metaphysical motive and promise of reward to do that. I often wonder if a man stranded alone in an island , without any societal pressures would ever consider…

> Do they? It's one thing to say 'i dont want to live' or "i wish i was dead", and another to actually go through the processes to do that

I think everyone has the capability, just as they have to murder. That they have not found circumstance such that they can conceive of it taking place doesn't mean they can't. People discover surprising (for good and ill) things about themselves when pushed to their limits and beyond.

> I often wonder if a man stranded alone in an island , without any societal pressures would ever consider suicide.

Whilst they'd be free of debt collectors, divorce, job loss, shame and the various other factors that may increase suicide, they'd also have new factors. For instance perhaps the island has no, or inadequate food and water. If you had a revolver and the prospect of starving to death considering surely suicide may be considered?

What of disease or serious injury?

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#45

Post by PragmaticPulp »

nibs wrote: post #36
_jgvg wrote: post #23

Maybe we should just add lithium to the water supply, although that would drive conspiracy theorists crazy! http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1699579 "Using data for 27 Texas counties from 1978-1987, it is shown that the incidence rates of suicide, homicide, and rape are significantly higher in counties whose drinking water supplies contain little or no lithium than in counties with water lithium levels ranging from…

I made that argument in a prior thread and people were really, really against it. Despite the abundance of evidence, from that study and the Japanese one [1]. I think Zinc would make a good addition too re: suicide [2]. There are two other large scale studies like this for lithium, both confirming the findings. One from Greece [3] and one from Argentina (can't find it...) [1]: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19407…

It's fine if you want to medicate yourself with lithium, but it's not acceptable to forcibly medicate everyone else.

The studies you linked to show an interesting correlation between lithium in water supplies and reduced suicide levels, but you can't judge the net benefit on a single metric alone. Lithium is not without side effects, and it's unreasonable to suggest that the vast majority of the population that is otherwise healthy be subjected to those side effects for the incremental benefit of a select few. The magnitude of these side effects may be relatively small in the levels we're talking about, but the net effect is likely not negligible when applied to entire populations over the course of their lifetimes.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#46

Post by Retric »

mikeash wrote: post #19

While interesting, this article seems to ignore the possibility that most people simply have a very strong desire to live. It assumes that if someone is suffering, and death would end that suffering, then suicide makes sense, and something weird must be going on to make people keep going. But this really doesn't make sense. The entire concept of suffering exists merely to keep us alive. We experience pain and despair…

Human evolution is very much a work in progress. Many things that hurt survival are around because other things are more important.

Evaluate these 50,000 options as pass fail. Change a few randomly, shuffle with another set. Repeat.

Sure, it works for minor things eventually. But, in the short term only the most major things have noticeable impact.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#47

Post by pizza »

StavrosK wrote: post #31
hasenj wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on how much your children need you actually. I've read somewhere that part of the reason women lose ability to bear children past around 40 is so they can take care of their grand children because that is usually more important at that point from an evolutionary point of view. It might have been a mere speculation but it kind of makes sense. Rather than take the time to bare and raise one child, that time is…

I dislike these kinds of explanations because they seem like ex post facto rationalizations. An explanation that could have gone both ways explains nothing: * Women stop having children after 40 because it's more important to raise the children you already have. * Women don't stop having children after 40 because bearing more offspring increases your chances of survival. Your explanation barely makes sense even on it…

We should design an ultralongitudinal study where we select for child-rearing volume and see what result we get /s

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#48

Post by ultramancool »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #45
nibs wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I made that argument in a prior thread and people were really, really against it. Despite the abundance of evidence, from that study and the Japanese one [1]. I think Zinc would make a good addition too re: suicide [2]. There are two other large scale studies like this for lithium, both confirming the findings. One from Greece [3] and one from Argentina (can't find it...) [1]: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19407…

It's fine if you want to medicate yourself with lithium, but it's not acceptable to forcibly medicate everyone else. The studies you linked to show an interesting correlation between lithium in water supplies and reduced suicide levels, but you can't judge the net benefit on a single metric alone. Lithium is not without side effects, and it's unreasonable to suggest that the vast majority of the population that is ot…

To add to this, I think there are many people who just plain wouldn't like do this. Even if they're unhappy or depressed they'd rather not have that feeling taken away by a mood stabilizer.

I'm not going to argue with the fact that it results in "better" outcomes in some people's minds, but personally I'd rather accept an increased suicide risk. I'm sure I could take any number of mind-altering substances every day and I'd feel great, but that doesn't mean it's something I want to do.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#49

Post by allendoerfer »

hasenj wrote: post #28
tmcpro wrote: post #25

the highest suicide rate is among people 85 years or older. With the advancement of healthcare people are living longer. So the rate of suicide amongst younger demographics most likely has declined slightly

Interesting. I've often contemplated about it. I don't think I want to live past 80. I mean unless there would be a medical revolution where you can retain youth or slow down aging significantly.

The idea that products around teeth, glasses, hearing and so on are so much better than 20 years ago and even if they just progress linearly I have two or three more rounds of these improvements really calms me when thinking about mortality.
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