Why do so few humans kill themselves? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#31

Post by StavrosK » Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 1:51 PM UTC

hasenj wrote: post #18

tribune wrote: post #15

Remember that it's technically a valid evolutionary strategy to live to, say, 25, have a few kids, then off yourself. Suicide before reproduction is all that would be selected against.

Depends on how much your children need you actually. I've read somewhere that part of the reason women lose ability to bear children past around 40 is so they can take care of their grand children because that is usually more important at that point from an evolutionary point of view. It might have been a mere speculation but it kind of makes sense. Rather than take the time to bare and raise one child, that time is…

I dislike these kinds of explanations because they seem like ex post facto rationalizations. An explanation that could have gone both ways explains nothing:

* Women stop having children after 40 because it's more important to raise the children you already have. * Women don't stop having children after 40 because bearing more offspring increases your chances of survival.

Your explanation barely makes sense even on its own merits. Surely, if nature wanted us to have N children and then take care of them, it would have set a cutoff on N, rather than on the time. What if someone has no children before 40? Is it to their evolutionary advantage to care for the children they didn't have?

Or, if your explanation were true, why would women not spend ten years gestating and given birth to a healthy 10-year old? It's illogical to design a system that can pop out one baby every nine months and then say "okay now that you've had anywhere from zero to thirty children, it would be best if you stopped and took care of them.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#32

Post by return0 » Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 1:52 PM UTC

> virtually all adults have the intellectual wherewithal to take their own lives

Do they? It's one thing to say 'i dont want to live' or "i wish i was dead", and another to actually go through the processes to do that. Suicide killers for example, need a strong metaphysical motive and promise of reward to do that.

I often wonder if a man stranded alone in an island , without any societal pressures would ever consider suicide.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#33

Post by Locke » Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 1:52 PM UTC

> One of the most amazing things about suicide is that over the past 80 years or so in the United States, suicide rates have been extremely flat. The fact that suicide rates have not changed in response to changes in medical technology and other ways of life is astounding.

This may be true in the US, but in Greenland it seems like suicide rates have changed in response to changing ways of life:

http://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2016/04/21/47484792...

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#34

Post by tim333 » Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 1:53 PM UTC

tl;dr, the article mostly discusses Soper’s hypothesis that "mental illnesses" such as depression evolved as defences against suicide rather than being the cause.

So I guess rather than thinking the job's crap, I'll just have a jolly skydiving trip with no chute you get depressed instead. There might be something there - I've always been a bit puzzled by the evolutionary function of depression.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#35

Post by 55555 » Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 1:53 PM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #19

While interesting, this article seems to ignore the possibility that most people simply have a very strong desire to live. It assumes that if someone is suffering, and death would end that suffering, then suicide makes sense, and something weird must be going on to make people keep going. But this really doesn't make sense. The entire concept of suffering exists merely to keep us alive. We experience pain and despair…

> But what's weird is not the fact that we don't constantly kill ourselves at the first sign of trouble, what's weird is the fact that we do sometimes kill ourselves when things look completely hopeless.

I think hope plays a big part. We don't kill ourselves because we have hope. If we are suffering and have no hope, that's a recipe for suicide.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#36

Post by nibs » Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 1:53 PM UTC

_jgvg wrote: post #23

Maybe we should just add lithium to the water supply, although that would drive conspiracy theorists crazy! http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1699579 "Using data for 27 Texas counties from 1978-1987, it is shown that the incidence rates of suicide, homicide, and rape are significantly higher in counties whose drinking water supplies contain little or no lithium than in counties with water lithium levels ranging from…

I made that argument in a prior thread and people were really, really against it. Despite the abundance of evidence, from that study and the Japanese one [1]. I think Zinc would make a good addition too re: suicide [2]. There are two other large scale studies like this for lithium, both confirming the findings. One from Greece [3] and one from Argentina (can't find it...) [1]: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19407280 [2]: http://www.jad-journal.com/article/S0165-0327(13)00626-5/abs... [3]: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24072668

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#37

Post by 2607_hn » Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 1:56 PM UTC

paulcole wrote: post #24

libeclipse wrote: post #12

According to the link, around 1 in 100 people commit suicide. It could be argued that this is a rather high number. Certainly any other diseases that achieved this would receive significant attention. What is interesting however, is how suicide rates haven't changed with other things like medical improvements and improvements to quality of life.

I think you're vastly overestimating how much people care. http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm Check out, Chronic lower respiratory diseases at nearly 4x suicide. Can't remember hearing a thing about that in the news.

You probably have heard of campaigns to reduce smoking. These diseases (e.g., COPD and the related emphysema/chronic bronchitis) are strongly linked to smoking.

In the mid 90s, I remember seeing some anti-smoking campaigns that used people with tracheotomies (see ref 1); these folks almost definitely had lower respiratory disease.

Your point is well-taken - we hardly spoke about addiction as a medical health problem until recently.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7bHdo2DJHY - this is only part of one of the ads I recall

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#38

Post by iaskwhy » Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 1:58 PM UTC

nibs wrote: post #36

_jgvg wrote: post #23

Maybe we should just add lithium to the water supply, although that would drive conspiracy theorists crazy! http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1699579 "Using data for 27 Texas counties from 1978-1987, it is shown that the incidence rates of suicide, homicide, and rape are significantly higher in counties whose drinking water supplies contain little or no lithium than in counties with water lithium levels ranging from…

I made that argument in a prior thread and people were really, really against it. Despite the abundance of evidence, from that study and the Japanese one [1]. I think Zinc would make a good addition too re: suicide [2]. There are two other large scale studies like this for lithium, both confirming the findings. One from Greece [3] and one from Argentina (can't find it...) [1]: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19407…

Are these available as supplements and, if so, is it safe to take them?

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#39

Post by ultramancool » Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 1:59 PM UTC

_jgvg wrote: post #23

Maybe we should just add lithium to the water supply, although that would drive conspiracy theorists crazy! http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1699579 "Using data for 27 Texas counties from 1978-1987, it is shown that the incidence rates of suicide, homicide, and rape are significantly higher in counties whose drinking water supplies contain little or no lithium than in counties with water lithium levels ranging from…

You'd be literally adding chemicals to change people's brain chemistry to the water. The conspiracy theorists would be pretty justified I'd say. I think this is the sort of thing you should really decide for yourself individually.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#40

Post by rrod » Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 2:01 PM UTC

I had a strange mental illness period a few years ago. In my opinion, Dr Peter Breggin and others with similar believes are right. To some people, like slow metabolizers, these psychiatric drugs, are the cause of suicide and other irrational behavior. The author says "Indeed, there appears to be a slight elevated risk of suicide in people taking some antidepressants, especially young people. But the effect is tiny". I think the word "tiny" is the problem here. The effect is not "tiny". It is simply misunderstood or ignored.