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My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

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Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

#141

Post by wmil »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #41
ColinCochrane wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the captions says: Store shelves that are well-stocked, like those in this bakery near Zerpa’s house, are typically full of non-essential items set at sky-high prices

Yes that is the caption but the picture shows a store with ample bread products, cereals, meat selections, canned vegetables, oils and other cooking supplies. When the discussion of the article is a "hunt for food" those things all seem like stuff you'd consider "prey". My question is whether or not that store is accessible to everyone (as described by my father, in the USSR the 'diplomatic' stores were not open to r…

The Venezuela government set extremely low prices for essential goods and has devalued the currency to an extreme degree. So anything market priced is extremely expensive (the money isn't worth much) and many local producers went under because they couldn't make money at the prices they were required to charge.

Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

#142

Post by mattmcknight »

jdblair wrote: post #111
ktRolster wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we need to be more careful with our terminology than using the terms "communist" and "socialist" interchangeably. You might be surprised to learn that not even the Soviet Union considered itself communist (they considered themselves socialist transitioning to communist). The reality is that "socialist" is a word without a clear definition, and it's better to avoid using it altogether if you want people to und…

"Socialism" has a clear, simple definition. Socialism is the ownership and control of the means of production by the government for the people. Its the mis-use of the term socialism and the details of actually implementing government ownership of the means of production that makes discussions so confusing. To pick a few examples, Obamacare is not socialism. Government assistance, as implemented in the US, is not soci…

The biggest confusion I see is exactly this, people use "socialism" when they mean "welfare state".

Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

#143

Post by andrewjl »

adventured wrote: post #110
mortenjorck wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, this is the difference between socialism in a free market and socialism in a command economy. While the former may try to influence the market (through social programs, state investment, money supply), it still must bend with the winds of market forces. The latter is an imposition of structure irrespective of the market: It might be seen more as a rigid body that can stand in certain conditions but begins to…

There's no such thing as Socialism in a free market, that's a contradiction in terms. Socialism means non-free market, and uses extreme violence to accomplish its ends of nationalizing wealth and production (which are inherently linked). And indeed, very liberal applications of force is the sole means to accomplish such a thing, which is why all attempts at Socialism throughout history always involved the equivalent…

Curious to hear how you use this perspective to rationalize the government structure for providing public goods in the U.S., such as defense, roads, and the court system.

Is the U.S. not a free market economy in your view?

Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

#144

Post by pastProlog »

tptacek wrote: post #106
pastProlog wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> solutions all point to markets It's amazing how this merry-go-round of meaningless and misleading language gets echoed in an echo chamber unquestioned. The USSR had markets just like the US did. You go to the store, you see radishes and milk, you buy radishes with your rubles at this market, you go to another store, you buy the blue shirt instead of the tan one with your rubles. The markets are the same. What do I…

Once again, debates over definitions completely derail any sensible discussion of socialism. The word "markets" as used by people criticizing command economies for not having them does not simply mean "places where radishes are kept with numbers attached to them". It is perfectly reasonable to use the term "market" that way. After all, what else would you call a place where radishes are stored with price tags? But th…

Alternate definition? A market is a place where you exchange currency for commodities. That is a definition of what a market is, not an "alternative definition".

There is no being coy at all, I can't even twist my head around how these similar places in the US and Russia are not the same. What is his "alternate definition" where such a place in Russia is stripped of the word market?

Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

#145

Post by awt »

tptacek wrote: post #113
awt wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is why collectivism pops up murderously over and over with different names.

Do I understand you accurately to be saying "if you want participate in a debate with me on my terms you're i part responsible for all the evils of state-run economies"?

Aha now that is an interesting question and I'm glad you asked. I know that I personally would feel responsible if I saw collectivism murdering yet another society and did not call it out for what it is. If I for example saw that people were dying of lead poisoning but instead blamed evil spirits then clearly I would be responsible for mass poisoning.

Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

#146

Post by guard-of-terra »

seibelj wrote: post #87
pastProlog wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> solutions all point to markets It's amazing how this merry-go-round of meaningless and misleading language gets echoed in an echo chamber unquestioned. The USSR had markets just like the US did. You go to the store, you see radishes and milk, you buy radishes with your rubles at this market, you go to another store, you buy the blue shirt instead of the tan one with your rubles. The markets are the same. What do I…

It always amazes me when people vehemently defend the USSR and similar, especially in a place like HN. The USSR was nothing like the United States. You did not start a "radish and milk" store in the USSR without approval from the government. To argue that the USSR was anything remotely close to a free market is absurd and a dangerous reinterpretation of established history. I'm afraid you have very skewed, incorrect…

You did not start a store in the USSR, period.

That was one out a few countries where all business was tightly state-owned.

You could grow some radishes and sell them at farmer's market, but that's it.

Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

#147

Post by huherto »

elcct wrote: post #74
huherto wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> central planning misallocation Having somebody in charge of the economy that does not understand that he doesn't understand how the economy works.

Socialists don't understand economy so there you go

You can't generalize. Certainly Hugo Chavez didn't.

Since Venezuela was a democracy you could also argue that democracies wreak havoc in the economy.

Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

#148

Post by Aloha »

pastProlog wrote: post #73
seibelj wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The China during the Cultural Revolution was not a success. Millions were murdered, people starved, and a terrible stain marks that period of China's long history. It was the pro-capitalist reforms that turned China into the success it is today, and as China starts to falter with it's unmanageable debt and unproductive, government-directed parts of the economy, the reforms will inevitably be capitalist, pro-market so…

> solutions all point to markets It's amazing how this merry-go-round of meaningless and misleading language gets echoed in an echo chamber unquestioned. The USSR had markets just like the US did. You go to the store, you see radishes and milk, you buy radishes with your rubles at this market, you go to another store, you buy the blue shirt instead of the tan one with your rubles. The markets are the same. What do I…

While there are a couple of good books about the economy of the soviet union - just this NYT article quoting Yeltsin should be enough - http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/23/world/europe/23cnd-yeltsin...

The light industry and consumer good sectors of the Soviet Economy were woefully underdeveloped - the Brezhnev Stagnation, didn't improve matters and robbed the Soviet economy of much hard currency that could have been used to invest in the economy - but to an extent just like us - the elephant in the room was the amount of GDP spent on the Military - there is a report of a perhaps apocryphal conversation between Gorbachev and Reagan about how each of their respective generals are always demanding more money, more for planes, missiles, tanks, and more.

The soviets lost the cold war not due to any inherent moral issues with their system (where there were many) - but due to economic collapse.

Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

#149

Post by knowaveragejoe »

astrodust wrote: post #120
guard-of-terra wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in the 1930s, Russia was surging ahead and industrializing It (The USSR) was also busy having famines that claimed millions of lives. Because it was too busy selling gold and wheat to buy industry from Americans (that's who built all those plants). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor I think I'd skip an industrialization like that.

In the 1930s the US was also busy having famines that claimed millions of lives: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dust_Bowl

Do you really not see the difference between these two events?

Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

#150

Post by tptacek »

adventured wrote: post #136
tptacek wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can stick your fingers in your ears and scream so that you won't hear reasonable people using the word "socialist" to mean things you don't mean when you say it, but that doesn't change the fact that reasonable people disagree with you about whether "socialism" implies "command economy".

That's entirely unnecessary and silly. Instead I'm going by the word of the very people that were instrumental in creating and spreading Socialism and its intellectual foundations to begin with: Marx, Engels, Hitler, Mussolini, Lenin, Trotsky, etc. No need to rely on arbitrary speculation. To argue that Socialism means something other than a command economy, you have to disagree with all the major players that were a…

Reasonable people disagree with you that Marx, Engels, Hitler, Mussolini, Lenin, and Trotsky have defined the word "socialism" with the precision you feel it now has.

Invoking Mussolini this way is a particularly telling example.

So is Hitler. Why not just simplify your argument to "The Nazis were National Socialists. Check and mate!"

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