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My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

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Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

#111

Post by jdblair »

ktRolster wrote: post #67
tptacek wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we need to be more careful with our terminology than using the terms "communist" and "socialist" interchangeably. Presumably, the real problem we're talking about is state-controlled economies, regardless of the ideologies that set them up.

I think we need to be more careful with our terminology than using the terms "communist" and "socialist" interchangeably. You might be surprised to learn that not even the Soviet Union considered itself communist (they considered themselves socialist transitioning to communist). The reality is that "socialist" is a word without a clear definition, and it's better to avoid using it altogether if you want people to und…

"Socialism" has a clear, simple definition. Socialism is the ownership and control of the means of production by the government for the people.

Its the mis-use of the term socialism and the details of actually implementing government ownership of the means of production that makes discussions so confusing. To pick a few examples, Obamacare is not socialism. Government assistance, as implemented in the US, is not socialism. A state run oil company, on the other hand, may be part of a socialist economy.

Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

#112

Post by kiba »

honkhonkpants wrote: post #79
clarkmoody wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Crony capitalism constructs stadiums. Socialism means the state ("the people") owns the means of production. As far as I can tell, manufacturing is not owned by the government and construction workers are not employed by the state.

How about the interstate highway system then? As far as I can tell, it is pure socialism.

It is also in some way, a disaster, but I think that's more about implementation rather than the use of public money.

Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

#113

Post by tptacek »

awt wrote: post #102
tptacek wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is probably an interesting semantic debate to have, but I have to apologize for being completely disinterested in it.

Which is why collectivism pops up murderously over and over with different names.

Do I understand you accurately to be saying "if you want participate in a debate with me on my terms you're i part responsible for all the evils of state-run economies"?

Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

#114

Post by eudox »

CamonZ wrote: post #105
eudox wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>since 2004 That's after two Chavez elections. Then the people were voting for Communism well before the elections were rigged in an observable way

>The people were voting for Communism Clearly, the world has always been filled with idiots full of resentment towards people that made better decisions and became more successful.

So there you go. That's how Communism is compatible with democracy. It burns the same fuel: the promise of mass political power.

Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

#115

Post by chiph »

pastProlog wrote: post #73
seibelj wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The China during the Cultural Revolution was not a success. Millions were murdered, people starved, and a terrible stain marks that period of China's long history. It was the pro-capitalist reforms that turned China into the success it is today, and as China starts to falter with it's unmanageable debt and unproductive, government-directed parts of the economy, the reforms will inevitably be capitalist, pro-market so…

> solutions all point to markets It's amazing how this merry-go-round of meaningless and misleading language gets echoed in an echo chamber unquestioned. The USSR had markets just like the US did. You go to the store, you see radishes and milk, you buy radishes with your rubles at this market, you go to another store, you buy the blue shirt instead of the tan one with your rubles. The markets are the same. What do I…

If you can find a copy, read Steeltown USSR

https://www.amazon.com/Steeltown-USSR-Soviet-Society-Gorbach...

The factory was producing substandard steel. Often they'd ship it to customers and it would arrive in an unusable condition because it had been stored outside and was more rust than steel. But they'd try and use it anyway, because if they complained the bureaucrats in Moscow would brand them troublemakers and route the next shipment to someone else and then they wouldn't meet their production goals, which meant their pay would be drastically cut, and their family would starve.

Your "blue shirt vs. tan shirt" is absurdly simplistic, and makes enormous incorrect assumptions, like "Is there even a shirt there to buy that day?"

Some other reading for you would be about Krushchev's visit to the US in the 1950's. He visited a few supermarkets and assumed that they had been set up just for his visit (Potemkin villages) as that was what the Soviet Union would have done. Because having that much product on the shelves was absurd.

http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/photo/gallery/090611...

Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

#116

Post by doozy »

As someone who lives next door to Venezuela, it seems to me the situation over there has really hit the proverbial fan.

Venezuela has been in a disastrous economic situation for years, but nowhere as bad what we are seeing these days.

Just yesterday their government opened the border with Colombia for 12 hours (they have kept it closed for a year) and about 125 thousand people crossed into Colombia to buy basic groceries and medicines. 30% did not cross back.

Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

#117

Post by vkou »

alvarosm wrote: post #84
tptacek wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we need to be more careful with our terminology than using the terms "communist" and "socialist" interchangeably. Presumably, the real problem we're talking about is state-controlled economies, regardless of the ideologies that set them up.

No. Some of us would contend that the basic tenets of socialism cause a society to degenerate in the same way. Communism brings it on brutally, all of a sudden. Besides, Venezuela considers itself socialist. "21st century socialism", they proudly named it.

The People's Democratic Republic of North Korea considers itself 'democratic' - it's even in the name!

Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

#118

Post by botfly »

pastProlog wrote: post #50
cowardlydragon wrote: post #22

This is of course getting a ton of press in Commie hating USA, but how much worse is this than narcostates or right-wing deathsquad-enforced regimes set up by the US? And of course since the US/CIA loved to plot overthrows and juntas, how could the country trust aid offers? And the wire recordings of Henry Kissinger trying to deliberately collapse the Argentinian economy before their takeover... I get that this is si…

Yes, Honduras is in a far worse state right now than Venezuela after Obama and Hillary supported the military coup against the majority indigenous/mestizo backed president, and the handful of white landowners of 90% of the land had the US trained/armed/funded army take over. Berta Caceres is just the latest murder, scores of political candidates, organizers etc. have been murdered, the murder rate is higher than Vene…

Additionally, the Venezuelan crude is generally viewed as a low quality product. It's not as suitable for many applications. So when prices drop it's one of the first products to get pushed out of the market

But why talk about that when we can have silly ideological arguments over the merits of communism and capitalism instead

Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

#119

Post by astrodust »

elliotec wrote: post #86
ktRolster wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, not totalitarian policies, just stupid policies. Genghis Khan could become dictator and if he fixed those policies, the economy would improve.

I always find it strange that Genghis Khan is used as an example this way. He was solely responsible for one of the largest economic revolutions in history by uniting the Silk Road, standardizing a writing system, and ran a meritocratic society. So yeah of course he could fix it, he's one of the most successful rulers of all time by all metrics. Edit: Yeah, obviously he and his conquest killed a lot of people. And ye…

He also murdered millions of peasants he saw no use for since rice farming was not on their list of priorities.

When conquering China it was often the case that academics were the first on the chopping block since they were presumably the ones most likely to cause trouble.

So yeah, he fixed the economy?

Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

#120

Post by astrodust »

guard-of-terra wrote: post #38
pastProlog wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The socialist downfall of countries are all unique, but follow similar paths The PRC just surpassed US GDP on some measures, whereas in the 1940s it was a western and Japanese occupied backwards basket case. Is that the downfall you mean? Or do you mean Russia, which couldn't win a war with the Japanese in 1905, never mind Germany a decade later? The New York Times columns of 1918 said Mr. Lenin's government would…

> in the 1930s, Russia was surging ahead and industrializing It (The USSR) was also busy having famines that claimed millions of lives. Because it was too busy selling gold and wheat to buy industry from Americans (that's who built all those plants). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor I think I'd skip an industrialization like that.

In the 1930s the US was also busy having famines that claimed millions of lives: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dust_Bowl
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