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My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

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Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

#81

Post by mortenjorck »

danielweber wrote: post #56
beloch wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Several countries that are fairly socialist have higher living standards than the U.S., where "socialism" is an epithet for some reason. McCarthy lives on I suppose. Venezuela's problem is totalitarianism . In a socialist country, it is possible for the government to be governed by law and have limits placed on its power. That is not what's been going in in Venezuala.

Those successful European countries let the economy operate and tax it. Venezuela runs the economy, including setting prices of basic necessities, which then become unavailable because it turns out the government cannot set those the way it thinks it can.

Indeed, this is the difference between socialism in a free market and socialism in a command economy. While the former may try to influence the market (through social programs, state investment, money supply), it still must bend with the winds of market forces.

The latter is an imposition of structure irrespective of the market: It might be seen more as a rigid body that can stand in certain conditions but begins to buckle once the wind changes.

Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

#82

Post by eudox »

CamonZ wrote: post #71
eudox wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firstly, that's not how replies work. Secondly, no, they were not rigged elections. A couple of links: https://www.cartercenter.org/documents/297.pdf http://eeas.europa.eu/eueom/missions/2006/venezuela/index_en... Of course democracy is not incompatible with Communism. How could it be when the people are enthusiastic supporters of Communism?

There have been countless statistical anomalies on all elections since 2004; like voting centers with 0 abstention and 100% votes pro-government on extremely remote locations without oversight from the opposition. But please, continue lecturing me on my country's electoral and voting system.

>since 2004

That's after two Chavez elections. Then the people were voting for Communism well before the elections were rigged in an observable way

Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

#84

Post by alvarosm »

tptacek wrote: post #17
seibelj wrote: post #4

I highly recommend reading Life and Death in Shanghai by Nien Cheng [0]. It's a factual, first-hand account of the China's Cultural Revolution and what living in a communist / socialist society is really like from an educated person's perspective. My inlaws escaped Saigon when it fell and say the picture is very accurate. The socialist downfall of countries are all unique, but follow similar paths. I encourage people…

I think we need to be more careful with our terminology than using the terms "communist" and "socialist" interchangeably. Presumably, the real problem we're talking about is state-controlled economies, regardless of the ideologies that set them up.

No. Some of us would contend that the basic tenets of socialism cause a society to degenerate in the same way. Communism brings it on brutally, all of a sudden.

Besides, Venezuela considers itself socialist. "21st century socialism", they proudly named it.

Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

#85

Post by vixen99 »

angersock wrote: post #47
sxcurry wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, not exactly like Atlas Shrugged, because the article is well written and coherent.

And short.

All of which goes to show that a novel can be highly influential and immensely successful albeit that it's badly written, incoherent, very long and subject to scathing critiques as in:

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year-old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_Shrugged

Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

#86

Post by elliotec »

ktRolster wrote: post #69
SilasX wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But what was totalitarian about it? All of the economically destructive measures (price controls, currency exchange rates, impositions on the rich/foreign investment) were immensely popular, right?

Yeah, not totalitarian policies, just stupid policies. Genghis Khan could become dictator and if he fixed those policies, the economy would improve.

I always find it strange that Genghis Khan is used as an example this way. He was solely responsible for one of the largest economic revolutions in history by uniting the Silk Road, standardizing a writing system, and ran a meritocratic society. So yeah of course he could fix it, he's one of the most successful rulers of all time by all metrics.

Edit: Yeah, obviously he and his conquest killed a lot of people. And yeah, in this case it was a metric of success for him and his empire.

Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

#87

Post by seibelj »

pastProlog wrote: post #73
seibelj wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The China during the Cultural Revolution was not a success. Millions were murdered, people starved, and a terrible stain marks that period of China's long history. It was the pro-capitalist reforms that turned China into the success it is today, and as China starts to falter with it's unmanageable debt and unproductive, government-directed parts of the economy, the reforms will inevitably be capitalist, pro-market so…

> solutions all point to markets It's amazing how this merry-go-round of meaningless and misleading language gets echoed in an echo chamber unquestioned. The USSR had markets just like the US did. You go to the store, you see radishes and milk, you buy radishes with your rubles at this market, you go to another store, you buy the blue shirt instead of the tan one with your rubles. The markets are the same. What do I…

It always amazes me when people vehemently defend the USSR and similar, especially in a place like HN. The USSR was nothing like the United States. You did not start a "radish and milk" store in the USSR without approval from the government. To argue that the USSR was anything remotely close to a free market is absurd and a dangerous reinterpretation of established history. I'm afraid you have very skewed, incorrect understanding of facts and of human nature.

Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

#88

Post by EGreg »

seibelj wrote: post #4

I highly recommend reading Life and Death in Shanghai by Nien Cheng [0]. It's a factual, first-hand account of the China's Cultural Revolution and what living in a communist / socialist society is really like from an educated person's perspective. My inlaws escaped Saigon when it fell and say the picture is very accurate. The socialist downfall of countries are all unique, but follow similar paths. I encourage people…

Some blame socialism, others blame this:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_curse

Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

#89

Post by botfly »

goombastic wrote: post #5

Sometimes I wonder if all of the online computers, internet, apps and other stuff makes any sense. We have complicated our lives unnecessarily and multiplied beyond the capacity of our plant to hold us meaningfully or have a life with any semblance of contemplation.

You're free to simplify and to contemplate

Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

#90

Post by danielweber »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #59
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on your definition of socialism. If you mean "all the means of production are owned by the state", then yes, that probably counts as collectivist. But if by "socialism", you mean "what goes by that label in Scandanavia", then probably no, "collectivist" doesn't fit. It's just somewhat more government services than the US has, at the price of somewhat higher taxes.

"Somewhat higher" as a euphemism for "half again more"

He used "somewhat higher" twice. While I'd personally prefer smaller government, paying 50% more for 50% more services isn't nuts.
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