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My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

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Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

#91

Post by tptacek »

ktRolster wrote: post #67
tptacek wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we need to be more careful with our terminology than using the terms "communist" and "socialist" interchangeably. Presumably, the real problem we're talking about is state-controlled economies, regardless of the ideologies that set them up.

I think we need to be more careful with our terminology than using the terms "communist" and "socialist" interchangeably. You might be surprised to learn that not even the Soviet Union considered itself communist (they considered themselves socialist transitioning to communist). The reality is that "socialist" is a word without a clear definition, and it's better to avoid using it altogether if you want people to und…

I agree that it's a pointless argument, but that goes both ways. Plenty of people use the term "socialist" in ways that don't connote planned economies. Moreover, there are examples of state-run economies that are neither socialist nor communist.

The trouble is that when we talk about the positive aspects of socialism, we have an annoying tendancy to exploit the word to make Sweden an apology for Venezuela: we confuse "socialized services" with "command economy" and end up ignoring the real public policy failures of places like Venezuela.

And when we talk about its negative aspects, we tend to make Venezuela a cautionary tale against, say, single-payer health care.

Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

#92

Post by pastProlog »

seibelj wrote: post #54
tptacek wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we need to be more careful with our terminology than using the terms "communist" and "socialist" interchangeably. Presumably, the real problem we're talking about is state-controlled economies, regardless of the ideologies that set them up.

When I say socialism and communism, I mean that the government regulates the economy or large pieces of it. Successful "socialist" western democracies are free-market economies that have higher taxes to provide a social safety net. I wish we could call that "empathetic capitalism".

> I mean that the government regulates the economy or large pieces of it

The Federal Reserve, bank bailouts, the government spending and government-backed monopolies that created the Internet we're typing on etc. The US "government regulates the economy or large pieces of it".

Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

#93

Post by ktRolster »

CamonZ wrote: post #58
junto wrote: post #48

Venezuela is on the brink. It has a socialist majority because previously the rich bleed them dry. Now the boot is on the other foot and the socialists are starving out the middle and upper classes who traditionally voted for the elite that controlled the media in Venezuela. So sad. At some point it will flip again and the cycle will repeat itself. Meanwhile the US continues to pressure the socialist government throu…

>It has a socialist majority because previously the rich bleed them dry BS. The system was always open enough that you could make something of yourself. >Now the boot is on the other foot and the socialists are starving out the middle and upper classes. Except the upper and middle classes still have money to buy products at exorbitant prices. Who do you think are the people who are starving to death, having to kill w…

Dios es Venezolano

Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

#94

Post by alvarosm »

elgabogringo wrote: post #9

And Chavez's daughter is now reported to be the Richest person in Venezuela: http://www.latinpost.com/articles/71424/20150812/maria-gabri...

Stuff like this is to be expected. Communists and socialists alike are, after all, glorified thieves. It turns out, of course, that stealing from "the rich" for "the benefit of the poor" will never stop there. A thief is a thief.

Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

#96

Post by tptacek »

awt wrote: post #77
tptacek wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This distinction has nothing to do with the point I'm making.

This is not a distinction, but a generalization, or abstraction that better describes the phenomenon and your assertion that a state controlled economy may be contemplated without respect to the ideology to which it conforms is dubious.

This is probably an interesting semantic debate to have, but I have to apologize for being completely disinterested in it.

Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

#98

Post by pastProlog »

hugozap wrote: post #78
vkou wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Corruption, actually. Their neighboring states aren't any better off. What's hitting them now is a decade of mismanagement of their petro-business... Combined with a collapse in oil prices. If Colombia's exports dropped in price by 60%, things would not be pretty. Fortunately, unlike Venezuela, its economy is far more diverse.

Colombian here. You can't even compare the situation to what's happening in Venezuela. There's a lot of corruption in south america but Venezuela is total disaster right now because of the totalitarian goverment.

> You can't even compare the situation to what's happening in Venezuela.

Well having the US send $1 billion a year, year after year to prop your country up ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Colombia ) helps.

Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

#99

Post by awt »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #55
awt wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you agree that the term collectivist encompasses both communism and socialism?

Depends on your definition of socialism. If you mean "all the means of production are owned by the state", then yes, that probably counts as collectivist. But if by "socialism", you mean "what goes by that label in Scandanavia", then probably no, "collectivist" doesn't fit. It's just somewhat more government services than the US has, at the price of somewhat higher taxes.

Right which is why I prefer to use collectivism which is prioritizing the group over the individual and would seem to subsume any definition of socialism you could ever reasonably give.

Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

#100

Post by tptacek »

adventured wrote: post #72
beloch wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Several countries that are fairly socialist have higher living standards than the U.S., where "socialism" is an epithet for some reason. McCarthy lives on I suppose. Venezuela's problem is totalitarianism . In a socialist country, it is possible for the government to be governed by law and have limits placed on its power. That is not what's been going in in Venezuala.

> countries that are fairly socialist Please describe the ways in which some countries are "fairly" socialist but aren't actually socialist. I'm not aware of a single example of a socialist nation succeeding in any regard towards creating prosperity for its people. Nor am I aware of a successful national experiment in socialism in the last two centuries of various attempts. Every historical attempt has ended extraord…

You can stick your fingers in your ears and scream so that you won't hear reasonable people using the word "socialist" to mean things you don't mean when you say it, but that doesn't change the fact that reasonable people disagree with you about whether "socialism" implies "command economy".
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