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My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

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Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

#51

Post by SilasX »

beloch wrote: post #34
tptacek wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we need to be more careful with our terminology than using the terms "communist" and "socialist" interchangeably. Presumably, the real problem we're talking about is state-controlled economies, regardless of the ideologies that set them up.

Several countries that are fairly socialist have higher living standards than the U.S., where "socialism" is an epithet for some reason. McCarthy lives on I suppose. Venezuela's problem is totalitarianism . In a socialist country, it is possible for the government to be governed by law and have limits placed on its power. That is not what's been going in in Venezuala.

But what was totalitarian about it? All of the economically destructive measures (price controls, currency exchange rates, impositions on the rich/foreign investment) were immensely popular, right?

Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

#52

Post by huherto »

JPKab wrote: post #37
vkou wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Corruption, actually. Their neighboring states aren't any better off. What's hitting them now is a decade of mismanagement of their petro-business... Combined with a collapse in oil prices. If Colombia's exports dropped in price by 60%, things would not be pretty. Fortunately, unlike Venezuela, its economy is far more diverse.

I'm sorry, but that's not at all accurate. If you think the middle class in Colombia and Brazil are dealing with anything remotely like this, you are nuts. Corruption is a parasite which adds costs to every resource flow it can find, but this is a wholly different scenario of resources being too scarce due to systemic degradation due to central planning misallocation combined with the drop in oil prices that had sust…

> central planning misallocation

Having somebody in charge of the economy that does not understand that he doesn't understand how the economy works.

Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

#53

Post by markeroon »

randiantech wrote: post #28
zeveb wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Lack of a functional democracy is the problem, not socialism. It's entirely possible to democratically decide to steal the means of production from the capitalists — and thus experience exactly these consequences.

I cant recall a single example of a functional democracy in a socialist government. Seems to be mutually exclusive outputs.

Uhhh... how about almost every Nordic country?

Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

#54

Post by seibelj »

tptacek wrote: post #17
seibelj wrote: post #4

I highly recommend reading Life and Death in Shanghai by Nien Cheng [0]. It's a factual, first-hand account of the China's Cultural Revolution and what living in a communist / socialist society is really like from an educated person's perspective. My inlaws escaped Saigon when it fell and say the picture is very accurate. The socialist downfall of countries are all unique, but follow similar paths. I encourage people…

I think we need to be more careful with our terminology than using the terms "communist" and "socialist" interchangeably. Presumably, the real problem we're talking about is state-controlled economies, regardless of the ideologies that set them up.

When I say socialism and communism, I mean that the government regulates the economy or large pieces of it. Successful "socialist" western democracies are free-market economies that have higher taxes to provide a social safety net. I wish we could call that "empathetic capitalism".

Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

#55

Post by AnimalMuppet »

awt wrote: post #26
tptacek wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we need to be more careful with our terminology than using the terms "communist" and "socialist" interchangeably. Presumably, the real problem we're talking about is state-controlled economies, regardless of the ideologies that set them up.

Would you agree that the term collectivist encompasses both communism and socialism?

Depends on your definition of socialism. If you mean "all the means of production are owned by the state", then yes, that probably counts as collectivist.

But if by "socialism", you mean "what goes by that label in Scandanavia", then probably no, "collectivist" doesn't fit. It's just somewhat more government services than the US has, at the price of somewhat higher taxes.

Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

#56

Post by danielweber »

beloch wrote: post #34
tptacek wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we need to be more careful with our terminology than using the terms "communist" and "socialist" interchangeably. Presumably, the real problem we're talking about is state-controlled economies, regardless of the ideologies that set them up.

Several countries that are fairly socialist have higher living standards than the U.S., where "socialism" is an epithet for some reason. McCarthy lives on I suppose. Venezuela's problem is totalitarianism . In a socialist country, it is possible for the government to be governed by law and have limits placed on its power. That is not what's been going in in Venezuala.

Those successful European countries let the economy operate and tax it. Venezuela runs the economy, including setting prices of basic necessities, which then become unavailable because it turns out the government cannot set those the way it thinks it can.

Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

#57

Post by knowaveragejoe »

pastProlog wrote: post #30
seibelj wrote: post #4

I highly recommend reading Life and Death in Shanghai by Nien Cheng [0]. It's a factual, first-hand account of the China's Cultural Revolution and what living in a communist / socialist society is really like from an educated person's perspective. My inlaws escaped Saigon when it fell and say the picture is very accurate. The socialist downfall of countries are all unique, but follow similar paths. I encourage people…

> The socialist downfall of countries are all unique, but follow similar paths The PRC just surpassed US GDP on some measures, whereas in the 1940s it was a western and Japanese occupied backwards basket case. Is that the downfall you mean? Or do you mean Russia, which couldn't win a war with the Japanese in 1905, never mind Germany a decade later? The New York Times columns of 1918 said Mr. Lenin's government would…

It can be argued that the PRC has done as well as they have by not only embracing free market principles but by turning a blind eye to their own industries essentially cheating on the global stage. The west in general has done similar things but at nowhere near the scale.

Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

#58

Post by CamonZ »

junto wrote: post #48

Venezuela is on the brink. It has a socialist majority because previously the rich bleed them dry. Now the boot is on the other foot and the socialists are starving out the middle and upper classes who traditionally voted for the elite that controlled the media in Venezuela. So sad. At some point it will flip again and the cycle will repeat itself. Meanwhile the US continues to pressure the socialist government throu…

>It has a socialist majority because previously the rich bleed them dry

BS. The system was always open enough that you could make something of yourself.

>Now the boot is on the other foot and the socialists are starving out the middle and upper classes.

Except the upper and middle classes still have money to buy products at exorbitant prices. Who do you think are the people who are starving to death, having to kill wild dogs and pigeons to be able to eat something?

>Meanwhile the US continues to pressure the socialist government through sanctions in order to break a government that they don't approve of. Whilst the oil price remains low, the socialist government can't profit enough to get back on track.

There is no track to get back to, Chavez,his XXI century revolution and his cronies have always been about stealing as much as they can.

>The innocents, including children are going to starve.

Pero tienen "Patria" (but they have "Homeland").

Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

#59

Post by JoeAltmaier »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #55
awt wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you agree that the term collectivist encompasses both communism and socialism?

Depends on your definition of socialism. If you mean "all the means of production are owned by the state", then yes, that probably counts as collectivist. But if by "socialism", you mean "what goes by that label in Scandanavia", then probably no, "collectivist" doesn't fit. It's just somewhat more government services than the US has, at the price of somewhat higher taxes.

"Somewhat higher" as a euphemism for "half again more"

Re: My Venezuela Nightmare: A 30-Day Hunt for Food in a Starving Land

#60

Post by [deleted] »

junto wrote: post #48

Venezuela is on the brink. It has a socialist majority because previously the rich bleed them dry. Now the boot is on the other foot and the socialists are starving out the middle and upper classes who traditionally voted for the elite that controlled the media in Venezuela. So sad. At some point it will flip again and the cycle will repeat itself. Meanwhile the US continues to pressure the socialist government throu…

[deleted]
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