Dissonant tones sound fine to people not raised on Western music • Hacker News Board

Re: Dissonant tones sound fine to people not raised on Western music

#61

Post by chillingeffect » Sun, Jul 17, 2016, 1:06 AM UTC

twelvechairs wrote: post #54

mrob wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most fundamental aspect of dissonance is the empirically measured Plomp and Levelt curve. This is approximated as: d(x)=e^(-3.5x)-e^(-5.75x), where x is the difference in frequency between two pure sine tones. (see http://sethares.engr.wisc.edu/paperspdf/consonance.pdf ) If we decompose sounds into sine waves, and sum the values on the Plomp and Levelt curve for all the pairs of sines, weighted by amplitude, then…

The curve describes the (approximate) outcome. It doesnt prove or disprove how brain processes work. What we do know is that the outcomes are related to both these curves and simple ratios. For me it seems logical that the brain (as a well established pattern matching machine) is probably doing something far more primative than calculating exponential curves. But if thats your view i cant disprove it.

The disconnect here is because the basic function of acoustic dissonance takes places in the hair cells of the ear. Harmonic ratios simply resonate hair cells in steady patterns rather than fast beat frequencies. (Slow beat frequencies are generally non-dissonant).

Studies like the OP's turn up every few years and are massively flawed due to oversimplification. Acoustic dissonance is waaaay more than a single-dimensional binary function... and then cultural layers are added.

Re: Dissonant tones sound fine to people not raised on Western music

#62

Post by SuperPaintMan » Sun, Jul 17, 2016, 2:08 AM UTC

OscarCunningham wrote: post #30

SuperPaintMan wrote: post #15

This pops up in abstracted painting as well, colours (more specfically the feelings/emotions we ascribe to a particular combunations) are entirely created due our cultural context. The greatest example of this is the colour of death, Black for western contries, White for eastern. Western fine art is more formulaic in it's creation, due to training using colour wheels (complementary across, traidic and other geometric…

A difference of x Hz produces a beat at 30x BPM. So notes at 440Hz and 443Hz (a difference of 11.8 cents) would produce a 90BPM tempo. But at higher frequencies the same increase in Hz corresponds to a smaller number of cents: 4400Hz to 4403Hz would be 1.18 cents.

Darn, So to match an exact tempo using beats limits to one singular note.

Re: Dissonant tones sound fine to people not raised on Western music

#63

Post by SuperPaintMan » Sun, Jul 17, 2016, 2:09 AM UTC

stephengillie wrote: post #57

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try this: what color is death to you?

Death is a change of state. When a car runs out of gas, what color is that situation? What is the color of an arriving email? The concept doesn't apply well.

Red, Green respectively.

With a big enough sample we might be able to draw some conclusions.

Re: Dissonant tones sound fine to people not raised on Western music

#64

Post by SuperPaintMan » Sun, Jul 17, 2016, 2:46 AM UTC

theoh wrote: post #31

SuperPaintMan wrote: post #15

This pops up in abstracted painting as well, colours (more specfically the feelings/emotions we ascribe to a particular combunations) are entirely created due our cultural context. The greatest example of this is the colour of death, Black for western contries, White for eastern. Western fine art is more formulaic in it's creation, due to training using colour wheels (complementary across, traidic and other geometric…

You're conflating colour symbolism with colour harmonies. They are two completely different phenomena. I don't know any visual artist who would claim that colour harmonies from the art of another culture are incomprehensible/jarring. Actually I would expect to get the opposite answer. Popular colour combos for interior decoration, though, are naturally going to vary culturally, but (I claim) within a pretty universal…

I was conflating terms, didn't have my morning cup. There are only a limited number of contrasts to play with so there is a general consensus on how to abuse them and that is near universal. Not so much incomprehensible, just a new way of thinking and slightly jarring. See Picasso and the African masks.

I only took a quick look but I did find this little paper on cultural differences between Americans/East Asian in terms of uniqueness/conformity in visual media and how that propagates outward. [PDF] http://php.scripts.psu.edu/faculty/n/x/nxy906/COMPS/indivdua...

Re: Dissonant tones sound fine to people not raised on Western music

#65

Post by cynicalkane » Sun, Jul 17, 2016, 3:05 AM UTC

ciconia wrote: post #32

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #8

Most of these chords aren't truly dissonant. They're very rare in pre-romantic classical music, but in jazz/pop theory they're considered basic triads with added colour notes, not weird exotic sounds from musical hell. Most people will have grown up hearing sequences that use mostly 7ths and/or 9ths, and won't think of them as exotic or strange at all. The ones that are dissonant - like the Dom 7#11, and some of the…

> They're very rare in pre-romantic classical music... Not true. Some styles of classical music employ dissonance in a prominent way - from late 14th century Ars Subtilior, through the pre-baroque stylus fantasticus and the bold chromaticism of Gesualdo, Frescobaldi, de Macke and others, and to the late baroque with Bach, Vivaldi, Zelenka, Rebel and others.

In traditional harmony something is considered "dissonant" if it's not part of the root triad in root inversion. All such chords are unstable, the theory goes, and must eventually resolve to some tonic chord. Classical harmony sticks almost exclusively to diatonic intervals, triads, and sevenths, and uses inversions and juxtaposition of chords (in sequence, via 'suspension', and so on) to provide "dissonance".

This isn't the kind of dissonant the OP is talking about. I'd be very surprised if you can come up with a clashing jumble like a Dom7#11 in Bach, even as a suspension or pedal. Cluster chords in classical music are almost unheard of.

Re: Dissonant tones sound fine to people not raised on Western music

#66

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Jul 17, 2016, 3:28 AM UTC

SuperPaintMan wrote: post #63

stephengillie wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Death is a change of state. When a car runs out of gas, what color is that situation? What is the color of an arriving email? The concept doesn't apply well.

Red, Green respectively. With a big enough sample we might be able to draw some conclusions.

[deleted]

Re: Dissonant tones sound fine to people not raised on Western music

#67

Post by acjohnson55 » Sun, Jul 17, 2016, 3:50 AM UTC

cynicalkane wrote: post #65

ciconia wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They're very rare in pre-romantic classical music... Not true. Some styles of classical music employ dissonance in a prominent way - from late 14th century Ars Subtilior, through the pre-baroque stylus fantasticus and the bold chromaticism of Gesualdo, Frescobaldi, de Macke and others, and to the late baroque with Bach, Vivaldi, Zelenka, Rebel and others.

In traditional harmony something is considered "dissonant" if it's not part of the root triad in root inversion. All such chords are unstable, the theory goes, and must eventually resolve to some tonic chord. Classical harmony sticks almost exclusively to diatonic intervals, triads, and sevenths, and uses inversions and juxtaposition of chords (in sequence, via 'suspension', and so on) to provide "dissonance". This i…

"Traditional harmony" evolved after the Medieval and Renaissance music the parent post is referring to, which can sound rather radical by Classical Era standards, by which time the diatonic harmony you speak of dominated professionally composed music. I'm not am expert, but I understand Western folk music traditions remained pretty funky.

Re: Dissonant tones sound fine to people not raised on Western music

#68

Post by elihu » Sun, Jul 17, 2016, 3:56 AM UTC

> To explore the effects of harmonicity and roughness found in Study 1, we measured pleasantness ratings for pairs of pure tones (single frequencies) separated by intervals from the chromatic scale (0–8 semitones)21 (Fig. 3f). This range includes some consonant intervals, for which the tone frequencies approximate harmonics of a common fundamental (and are thus related by simple integer ratios), and some dissonant intervals, for which the tone frequencies are inharmonic.

So... they went and found a group of people unfamiliar with western music, and then tested which of the intervals from 12-tone-equal-temperament sound good to them?

What would be the result if we were to repeat the test with people familiar with western music, but the notes were taken from 13-tone-equal-temperament? What conclusions (if any) could we draw from that about whether those familiar with western music appreciate harmony?

Granted, notes like the equal-tempered major third are probably close enough to their just equivalents (such as the 5:4 major third) that to someone who was familiar with the latter, the former would probably be recognized as such even to one who had never heard equal-tempered intervals before, but still they'd probably sound weirdly out-of-tune. (The ET third is about 15 cents sharp of the just third.) Why not just test with just intervals, which are more universal/fundamental than equal tempered intervals, which are sort of a modern "good enough" compromise we use for convenience.

Re: Dissonant tones sound fine to people not raised on Western music

#69

Post by cynicalkane » Sun, Jul 17, 2016, 4:05 AM UTC

acjohnson55 wrote: post #67

cynicalkane wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In traditional harmony something is considered "dissonant" if it's not part of the root triad in root inversion. All such chords are unstable, the theory goes, and must eventually resolve to some tonic chord. Classical harmony sticks almost exclusively to diatonic intervals, triads, and sevenths, and uses inversions and juxtaposition of chords (in sequence, via 'suspension', and so on) to provide "dissonance". This i…

"Traditional harmony" evolved after the Medieval and Renaissance music the parent post is referring to, which can sound rather radical by Classical Era standards, by which time the diatonic harmony you speak of dominated professionally composed music. I'm not am expert, but I understand Western folk music traditions remained pretty funky.

Not really. Western folk music is usually harmonically conservative. As for art music, the codification of classical harmony began with Renaissance theorists and the standard codifications are based on that lineage of thought. Counter-reformation composers like Palestrina were considered the most harmonically "perfect". The few true weirdos like Gesualdo were considered, well, really weird and thus excluded from common practice. Finally, most of the guys mentioned by the previous poster are actually Baroque.

I don't think even Gesualdo used chord clusters. IIRC it was his chromatic sense of tonality that was shocking, not his choice of chords.

Re: Dissonant tones sound fine to people not raised on Western music

#70

Post by apendleton » Sun, Jul 17, 2016, 4:30 AM UTC

cynicalkane wrote: post #69

acjohnson55 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Traditional harmony" evolved after the Medieval and Renaissance music the parent post is referring to, which can sound rather radical by Classical Era standards, by which time the diatonic harmony you speak of dominated professionally composed music. I'm not am expert, but I understand Western folk music traditions remained pretty funky.

Not really. Western folk music is usually harmonically conservative. As for art music, the codification of classical harmony began with Renaissance theorists and the standard codifications are based on that lineage of thought. Counter-reformation composers like Palestrina were considered the most harmonically "perfect". The few true weirdos like Gesualdo were considered, well, really weird and thus excluded from comm…

You guys aren't disagreeing exactly. acjohnson55 mentioned "Medieval and Renaissance" but you're just talking about the Renaissance, and the Medieval-to-Renaissance transition is the interesting part (I think acjohnson55 just got the timing a bit wrong). The major third as a consonant interval became accepted in the early Renaissance. Most medieval composers considered thirds to be dissonant, which makes medieval music sound strange to modern listeners because things don't resolve as we expect them to, with phrases often ending on open fourths or fifths instead of triads (though to be fair, their third was somewhat different than ours because of changes in temperament over time).