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Coup attempt underway in Turkey

theatlantic.com

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Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#241

Post by em3rgent0rdr »

kiba wrote: post #77
whack wrote: post #10

"Modern Turkey was founded by Mustafa Kemal, a general in the Turkish Army who was later formally granted the surname “Ataturk,” or father of the Turks. Ataturk set about an aggressive program of modernizing and “Westernizing” the country, pushing religion to the margins, banning certain apparel like headscarves and fezes, and converting Turkish from Arabic to Latin script. But that secularism has always remained ten…

It's certainly a strong reminder that a democracy does not necessarily support liberalism like ours do in the West. It has to be a core tenant that the population believes in.

This is why democracy is not the magical fix.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#242

Post by feral »

vacri wrote: post #225
feral wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If push came to shove, the armed forces swear their allegiance to the British monarch, I really find it difficult to believe its a desirable state of affairs that the army in a 'democracy' swears allegiance to a hereditary monarch, and that its good, if as you say, people in the army take that seriously. What if the interests of the monarch conflicted with the interests of the people? In some sense that meant 'push…

> The monarch is just another citizen - another random human - who just happened to be born into a particular family Nope. The monarch is someone who has been heavily trained in diplomacy and politics, and has a great network of political connections and the ability to speak with effect to powerbrokers. Whether or not the monarch is morally good is a different argument, but they are mostly definitely not interchangea…

Sure, yeah, I see that the monarch doesn't exercise much power; from the outside, the monarchy doesn't look like a practical problem.

Until I read [commenter from military family on HN] talking about sworn allegiances when "push comes to shove". That's when I go 'woah'.

>The monarch is someone who has been heavily trained in diplomacy and politics

And born into a life of privilege, where even if they do very little, they'll still reign.

I'd rather take the cohort of random citizens who work their way up through a [very imperfect] selection process which selects a leader/representative.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#243

Post by mnbcvx »

yodsanklai wrote: post #200
mnbcvx wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely, I was talking about this with my wife yesterday. It's illegal for a women to go topless in France (but not a man), so how is a women covering her breasts any different than a woman covering her head? I can't imagine anything less welcoming than being a recent refugee or immgrant, and then in order to receive an education you are forced to break with a core tenet of your religious and cultural beliefs, and…

> It's illegal for a women to go topless in France (but not a man) Is it? there are tons of topless women on French beaches. I don't know about specific laws but nobody goes topless or naked while walking in a city (in France or elsewhere). I don't see this as a great restriction on my freedom. Actually, more worrying IMHO is that if a woman were to go topless in the street, she'd get more trouble from some (religiou…

I'm actually having trouble finding any exact law, so in the interest of accuracy, I'll admit I could be wrong about French law here. This Wikipedia article says

"Chest and private parts must be covered except near bathing zones. Burqa banned."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clothing_laws_by_country

Another article I read mentioned that a particular city recently explicitly banned male toplessness, which seems to imply that the above statement about covering the chest only applies to women.

Another Wikipedia article here states that the activist group Topfreedom has protested in France, also implying that the covering the chest only applies to women.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topfreedom#France

Can anyone point to the specific law? The Wikipedia article on clothing laws doesn't have a source. I was going off what I've been told by French friends, but I'd like to know conclusively.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#244

Post by drauh »

steve19 wrote: post #138

The coup is over. https://twitter.com/AJENews/status/754108743412047872?ref_sr... The US announced support for the government where before they were hedging their bets.

No, it's not over. That was likely propaganda.

This update from The Guardian at 2016-07-16 03:15 UTC (i.e. 2 hours after your comment here):

However, Reuters reports that bomb attacks on the parliament are continuing, with a senior Turkish official saying rebel soldiers have been warned they will be shot down if they attempt to use more military aircraft.[0]

[0] https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2016/jul/15/turkey-co...

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#246

Post by kiba »

tcoppi wrote: post #204
kiba wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that it's bad to wear religious clothing or have political opinions -- it's just that a school should be a place of learning, not propaganda. As an American, I think of nothing when people wear hijab or whatever, and trust me, I am an atheist who think religion is irrational and that humanity would be better off without it. Maybe the French would be better off thinking nothing of it when someone wears religi…

I am extremely sympathetic to this view as an American, but I think it is worthwhile to think of this from a native Frenchman's perspective. There has been a mass influx of "foreign" Muslim/Islamic peoples there over the past twenty-odd years that do not share western secular values for the most part, and are happy to impose their own views on the native population. If you were a native Frenchman, or a person in a si…

There has been a massive influx of people into the States who don't necessary share American values as well. The Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, Irish, Mexicans, etc. Virtually any group you can think of.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#247

Post by mnbcvx »

jazzyk wrote: post #240
mnbcvx wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wrong, the head dress is banned in schools. "The wearing of all conspicuous religious symbols in public schools was previously banned in 2004 by a different law" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ban_on_face_covering

You understand the distinction between Islamic veils/headscarves (which clearly imply religious affiliation) and clearly non-religious , headscarves worn by many style-conscious, but secular, women? Your misunderstanding may come from terminology - a headscarf need not be religious at all, and headscarves which are not religious (it is easy to tell the difference) are NOT banned.

Does it clearly imply religious affiliation, or cultural affiliation? Either way, it's such a petty and arbitrary distinction and I'd guess that a Muslim girl in a French school wearing a regular head scarf would still get hassled and forced to remove it.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#248

Post by steve19 »

drauh wrote: post #244
steve19 wrote: post #138

The coup is over. https://twitter.com/AJENews/status/754108743412047872?ref_sr... The US announced support for the government where before they were hedging their bets.

No, it's not over. That was likely propaganda. This update from The Guardian at 2016-07-16 03:15 UTC (i.e. 2 hours after your comment here): However, Reuters reports that bomb attacks on the parliament are continuing, with a senior Turkish official saying rebel soldiers have been warned they will be shot down if they attempt to use more military aircraft.[0] [0] https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2016/jul/15/turk…

Over in the sense that the outcome is now a fait accompli, even if some rebels do not understand this yet in the fog of war.

A few mortar shells being lobbed at parliament doth not a change in government make.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#249

Post by DasIch »

chj wrote: post #220
cperciva wrote: post #52

Why did people support Hitler? Why do people support Trump? Why do people support Putin? Some people aren't very concerned with democratic principles; some people like the policy agenda and are willing to sacrifice democratic principles in order to get the policies they want; some people are gullible and believe scapegoat arguments; some people, particularly in times of insecurity, seek out a "strong man".

If the word Hitler is frequently used to scare people, soon it will lose its scaring power, just like handing out Nobel peace prize randomly loses its credibility.

Soon? It has already lost it long ago.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#250

Post by cperciva »

dang wrote: post #238
cperciva wrote: post #52

Why did people support Hitler? Why do people support Trump? Why do people support Putin? Some people aren't very concerned with democratic principles; some people like the policy agenda and are willing to sacrifice democratic principles in order to get the policies they want; some people are gullible and believe scapegoat arguments; some people, particularly in times of insecurity, seek out a "strong man".

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12104307 and marked it off-topic.

I agree that it's off-topic, but didn't the subthread become off-topic at the point that cesarbs asked the question rather than when I answered it?
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