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Coup attempt underway in Turkey

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Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#201

Post by king_phil »

vidarh wrote: post #163
ZainRiz wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would consider the US approach fairly liberal, where everyone is free to do as they want as long as they're not affecting other people with their actions. France goes to the extreme level of saying "You can't even wear your religious clothing inside the school, even if you feel naked without it." How would you define liberalism?

While I don't agree with the French approach of regulating dress, one of their arguments is that you do affect other people with your choice of how to dress, and that people should not have to be subjected to certain overt expressions of religion in certain contexts, with schools being a particularly sensitive topic because of their position in passing on the ideals of the republic. I think they go way too far, and a…

That means if I am a pastafarian (Google it if you don't know it - and yes, at least in Germany it is a approved religion) I can't put a noodle riddle on my head (because it is religious clothing for pastafarians) - or can NOBODY, just because it is religious clothing? And yes, you might not believe it, but in Germany there is a ruling that you are allowed to take your passport photo with a noodle riddle on your head because it is your religious headwear...

I think we should throw all this religion in the toilet and flush.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#202

Post by vidarh »

Steko wrote: post #88
ugh123 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>A democratic arm that rules the country day-to-day, and a "benevolent dictatorship" that will overthrow the democratic arm if it violates the country's "fundamental principles" Sounds a lot like Iran, although their "democratic arm" is very much a farce.

Curiously the description of the West cheering on the non-democratic results reminded me of Shah-era Iran, that turned out swimmingly.

The difference in Turkey has generally been that the military has been very clear about not holding on to power for very long. There's still every reason to be vary, but so far, for a military that has carried out multiple coups Turkey's military has demonstrated an unusual degree of commitment to voluntarily return the country to civilian rule.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#203

Post by fsaneq2 »

kiba wrote: post #183
fsaneq2 wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having been brought up in a French system and then going to a US college, I must say I strongly prefer the French system. I guess Americans would take offense to this view, but I find wearing religious clothing in a public institution such as a school incredibly obnoxious and pushy -- it's akin to your professor suddenly starting to push his/her political views onto you in an unrelated lecture, or something. It's not…

It's not that it's bad to wear religious clothing or have political opinions -- it's just that a school should be a place of learning, not propaganda. As an American, I think of nothing when people wear hijab or whatever, and trust me, I am an atheist who think religion is irrational and that humanity would be better off without it. Maybe the French would be better off thinking nothing of it when someone wears religi…

I think the difference is that the French perceive obvious religious clothing similarly to someone wearing a T-shirt saying "I vote republican/democrat" in huge letters -- though I don't know, maybe that'd be considered fine too in the US (US schools, that is)?

I see it as clearly unnecessary/voluntary (so it's quite different from being gay like in your example), so it's an attempt to advertise, which leaves a bad taste in a place like a school.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#204

Post by tcoppi »

kiba wrote: post #183
fsaneq2 wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having been brought up in a French system and then going to a US college, I must say I strongly prefer the French system. I guess Americans would take offense to this view, but I find wearing religious clothing in a public institution such as a school incredibly obnoxious and pushy -- it's akin to your professor suddenly starting to push his/her political views onto you in an unrelated lecture, or something. It's not…

It's not that it's bad to wear religious clothing or have political opinions -- it's just that a school should be a place of learning, not propaganda. As an American, I think of nothing when people wear hijab or whatever, and trust me, I am an atheist who think religion is irrational and that humanity would be better off without it. Maybe the French would be better off thinking nothing of it when someone wears religi…

I am extremely sympathetic to this view as an American, but I think it is worthwhile to think of this from a native Frenchman's perspective. There has been a mass influx of "foreign" Muslim/Islamic peoples there over the past twenty-odd years that do not share western secular values for the most part, and are happy to impose their own views on the native population. If you were a native Frenchman, or a person in a similar situation in Europe, how would you feel about women wearing the hajib? I don't think it is that black and white.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#205

Post by xigency »

oblio wrote: post #98
pi-err wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

France would be a good western example of the frail intrinsic support for liberalism by democracy.

Why? France has been liberal and democratic for the last 100+ years.

I would say historically, particularly after the French Revolution, France had a few missteps with democracy in general, but I can see your objection.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#206

Post by jazzyk »

ErrantX wrote: post #142
oblio wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean secularism? It only rejects religion as part of the state or education. You can do whatever you want in private environments. For a multi-religious country, it seems to be a decent approach to religious freedom. How would you define liberalism and is there a country that has it (or had it in the past)?

> You mean secularism? It only rejects religion as part of the state or education. You can do whatever you want in private environments I'm a fan of secularism, and am an Atheist. And I also strongly disapprove of how some Islamic groups treat women. However, from here in the UK, France seems strangely, even oddly intolerant. Muslim religious dress is banned in public.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ban_on_fac…

Everyone take a deep breath.

The ban in France is for face-covering only, and it applies to anybody (male/female).

There are serious reasons for this, both cultural- and security-based.

Head scarves are allowed in France, to the best of my knowledge.

EDIT:

The law bans "the wearing of symbols or garb which show religious affiliation in public primary and secondary schools" [1]

So you can wear a head scarf as long as it does not imply religious affiliation. As a matter of fact, head scarves have been present in high fashion (Azzedine Alaia,etc) for a while.

[1] Wikipedia: The bill passed France's national legislature and was signed into law by President Jacques Chirac on 15 March 2004 (thus the technical name is law 2004-228 of 15 March 2004) and came into effect on 2 September 2004, at the beginning of the new school year. The full title of the law is "loi no 2004-228 du 15 mars 2004 encadrant, en application du principe de laïcité, le port de signes ou de tenues manifestant une appartenance religieuse dans les écoles, collèges et lycées publics" (literally "Law #2004-228 of March 15, 2004, concerning, as an application of the principle of the separation of church and state, the wearing of symbols or garb which show religious affiliation in public primary and secondary schools").

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#207

Post by mustaflex »

Let me give you guys some more inside details:

From the start it was clear that something was weird: they weren't enough soldiers to make a real coup, only a few hundred soldiers a few helicopters, tanks, etc... And it seems that they knew it and did it despite that. By the way they even bombed the house where the President was supposed to be...

The coup attempt was made by members of a religious group named "Nurcu" leaded by Fetullah Güllen, who is in exile in the U.S.A. ...

It was known that members of this group had infiltrated every possible area of the government (possible, legal branch, army,etc...)

Yes this group was the biggest ally of Erdogan during more than 10 years and it is mainly because of Erdogan that these people infiltrated so well every aspect of the government. They together imprisoned falsely reporters, policemen and soldiers claiming they were attempting to make a coup. They even imprisoned the former Chief of Staff. And those idiots in the AKP government and people who supported Erdogan were cheering them because they were getting rid of "secular" forces in the army. Now irony is these same people are doing exactly what they were supposedly trying to prevent: Make a Coup.

The Turkish army was always saying that the biggest danger for the country was religious backwardness(irtica) and unfortunately it has proven right again.

Although they were shots fired to civilians and to cops, the civilian crowds didn't hurt the few soldiers on the streets they grab them and handed them to the police. The situation is getting better, the Chief of Staff was saved (he was hostage by these people) the commanding officers are calling these soldiers back to their base to be arrested. Most of them are coming back. They even shot a helicopter("rebel") with an F-16.

I think the situation will settle in maximum 24H.

Unfortunately I think this will give Erdogan more power and leverage on the long run and drive the country deeper in insanity. Turkey is on its way to become the "Pakistan" to Syria/Irak, the Afghanistan of the middle-east.

For the better or the worse the only thing keeping Turkey from being another middle-eastern country was(unfortunately) the army.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#208

Post by jazzyk »

mnbcvx wrote: post #151
ErrantX wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You mean secularism? It only rejects religion as part of the state or education. You can do whatever you want in private environments I'm a fan of secularism, and am an Atheist. And I also strongly disapprove of how some Islamic groups treat women. However, from here in the UK, France seems strangely, even oddly intolerant. Muslim religious dress is banned in public.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ban_on_fac…

Absolutely, I was talking about this with my wife yesterday. It's illegal for a women to go topless in France (but not a man), so how is a women covering her breasts any different than a woman covering her head? I can't imagine anything less welcoming than being a recent refugee or immgrant, and then in order to receive an education you are forced to break with a core tenet of your religious and cultural beliefs, and…

Not head, face.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#209

Post by rayiner »

kiba wrote: post #77
whack wrote: post #10

"Modern Turkey was founded by Mustafa Kemal, a general in the Turkish Army who was later formally granted the surname “Ataturk,” or father of the Turks. Ataturk set about an aggressive program of modernizing and “Westernizing” the country, pushing religion to the margins, banning certain apparel like headscarves and fezes, and converting Turkish from Arabic to Latin script. But that secularism has always remained ten…

It's certainly a strong reminder that a democracy does not necessarily support liberalism like ours do in the West. It has to be a core tenant that the population believes in.

In Bangladesh, popular support led the government to throw away the secularism enshrined in the country's original constitution and declare Islam the state religion.

Even in "modern times" democracy and liberalism are not necessarily (or even often) co-extensive.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#210

Post by [deleted] »

sdm wrote: post #171
kiba wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's certainly a strong reminder that a democracy does not necessarily support liberalism like ours do in the West. It has to be a core tenant that the population believes in.

It should be noted that Turkey is generally considered a western country.

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