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Coup attempt underway in Turkey

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Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#141

Post by personjerry »

oldboyFX wrote: post #127
cperciva wrote: post #52

Why did people support Hitler? Why do people support Trump? Why do people support Putin? Some people aren't very concerned with democratic principles; some people like the policy agenda and are willing to sacrifice democratic principles in order to get the policies they want; some people are gullible and believe scapegoat arguments; some people, particularly in times of insecurity, seek out a "strong man".

Are you seriously comparing hitler with trump and putin? Holy crap some people are truly indoctrinated by their ideologies to the point of no return.

> Are you seriously comparing hitler with trump and putin?

You're missing the point entirely. The parent post wasn't saying Hitler is like Trump and Putin, but rather uses them all as examples of charismatic political leaders.

> Holy crap some people are truly indoctrinated by their ideologies to the point of no return.

This seems like a rather extreme conclusion to jump to.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#142

Post by ErrantX »

oblio wrote: post #116
ZainRiz wrote: post #105

How do you define liberal? France's idea of "liberalism" is "follow our culture exactly or face heavy fines/punishment". They've basically turned their culture into a new religion

You mean secularism? It only rejects religion as part of the state or education. You can do whatever you want in private environments. For a multi-religious country, it seems to be a decent approach to religious freedom. How would you define liberalism and is there a country that has it (or had it in the past)?

> You mean secularism? It only rejects religion as part of the state or education. You can do whatever you want in private environments

I'm a fan of secularism, and am an Atheist. And I also strongly disapprove of how some Islamic groups treat women.

However, from here in the UK, France seems strangely, even oddly intolerant. Muslim religious dress is banned in public.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ban_on_face_covering

Now; I disapprove of forcing women to wear that sort of dress on religious grounds. In fact, I find it obnoxious (although, aside, Western society seems to expect women to wear makeup and look "good" at all times... so are we any better?).

However, I'm not sure banning the dress is a good solution - akin to punishing the victim...

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#143

Post by [deleted] »

mikeash wrote: post #108
cperciva wrote: post #52

Why did people support Hitler? Why do people support Trump? Why do people support Putin? Some people aren't very concerned with democratic principles; some people like the policy agenda and are willing to sacrifice democratic principles in order to get the policies they want; some people are gullible and believe scapegoat arguments; some people, particularly in times of insecurity, seek out a "strong man".

Note that the Nazis never had the support of the majority. It's a common myth that Hitler was elected, but he seized power at gunpoint after winning a minority of the legislature (albeit a sizeable minority). Putin is similar, with electoral fraud substituting for naked force. Trump remains to be seen. Erdogan, on the other hand, seems to legitimately enjoy the support of the majority. It may just be a quantitative d…

[deleted]

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#144

Post by Shinkei »

ZainRiz wrote: post #120
oblio wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean secularism? It only rejects religion as part of the state or education. You can do whatever you want in private environments. For a multi-religious country, it seems to be a decent approach to religious freedom. How would you define liberalism and is there a country that has it (or had it in the past)?

I would consider the US approach fairly liberal, where everyone is free to do as they want as long as they're not affecting other people with their actions. France goes to the extreme level of saying "You can't even wear your religious clothing inside the school, even if you feel naked without it." How would you define liberalism?

Culture can be affected by draconian laws also. I believe religious clothing designed to oppress women is regressive and detrimental to Democracy. Please read this:

https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2015/sep/03/hengame...

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#145

Post by foota »

_pferreir_ wrote: post #125
petercooper wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A democratic arm that rules the country day-to-day, and a "benevolent dictatorship" that will overthrow the democratic arm if it violates the country's "fundamental principles" Exactly (part of) why I'm in support of the monarchy in the UK. If push came to shove, the armed forces swear their allegiance to the British monarch, not the government (I'm from an army family and know this is taken seriously). We have attai…

What does that have to do with monarchy? The same happens in some republics. E.g. in Portugal there is a prime minister (government) and a president who acts as supreme commander of the armed forces.

Probably because the monarchy isn't elected and so might maintain some ability to persevere through times when the population might make poor decisions. Also immune to bad elections.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#146

Post by makmanalp »

whack wrote: post #10

"Modern Turkey was founded by Mustafa Kemal, a general in the Turkish Army who was later formally granted the surname “Ataturk,” or father of the Turks. Ataturk set about an aggressive program of modernizing and “Westernizing” the country, pushing religion to the margins, banning certain apparel like headscarves and fezes, and converting Turkish from Arabic to Latin script. But that secularism has always remained ten…

With Turkish politics, nuance is the name of the game. The nuance that's missing from that paragraph is in the next one:

> But what is not clear yet in the latest coup is whether it fits the same pattern of secular Kemalists clamping down on Islamism. There is speculation that the coup’s leaders may in fact be loyal to Fethullah Gulen, an enigmatic Muslim leader who’s currently in exile in Pennsylvania—that’s certainly what Erdogan claimed in his FaceTime address to the nation. Gulen is a former Erdogan ally who was essential to his rise, but the men have since broken.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#147

Post by Dagwoodie »

ZainRiz wrote: post #105

How do you define liberal? France's idea of "liberalism" is "follow our culture exactly or face heavy fines/punishment". They've basically turned their culture into a new religion

How is your anti-type of liberalism any different from how non-liberals are treated in western countries? Non-liberals are increasingly not tolerated by liberals (see recent SJW issues) the world over and increasingly face heavy fines/punishment if they don't follow the liberal culture.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#148

Post by woodpanel »

Maybe this is the moment in history turkey is becoming coup-proof (a.k.a. next-level maturity).

(if even opposition groups speak out against the coup and the people are taking over the streets peacefully - in favor of the government / against the coup, according to the news I get)

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#149

Post by Eyght »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #132
dmix wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If this thing goes south -- and I fear it will -- the backlash will be severe. Not a good thing for the future of Turkey. Especially considering he has been a tempered authoritarian before the coup. Now they will respond by expanding authority. Leaders like that always do. Hopefully that will further lead to support of the coup end goals which had some legitimacy. The only problem is that Erogdan has many hardline…

Exactly. Look for a full-scale purge of the military, which might include punishing/shooting a lot of people who had nothing to do with anything. It could take Turkey back 110 years. Very sad.

Venezuela's coup that ousted Chavez, and had the people reinstate him, might be a fair comparison. The returning leader will have a carte blanche for future politics.

Re: Coup attempt underway in Turkey

#150

Post by jonny_eh »

delazeur wrote: post #68
nostrademons wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The U.S. separation of power is based on similar ideas. Congress makes laws on a day-by-day basis, but when the will of the people contradicts certain fundamental principles enshrined in the Constitution, the courts have a right to strike down and nullify laws.

> the courts have a right to strike down and nullify laws Notably, this power does not appear in the Constitution. See Marbury v. Madison [1]. (Not that it makes a practical difference, but it is interesting to see how our conception of government powers and the basic government structure changes over time, even without new constitutional amendments.) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marbury_v._Madison

I believe that case was covered in the most recent episode of the podcast "More Perfect", from the makers of RadioLab: http://www.wnyc.org/story/giggly-blue-robot
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