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Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana

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Re: Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana

#151

Post by the_mitsuhiko »

Chathamization wrote: post #95
aresant wrote: post #29

I wrote this on a previously buried thread: Naming their system "autopilot" goes beyond the marketing dept overstepping and into the territory of irresponsibility. The "average" definition of autopilot per Wikipedia is "autopilot is a system used. . . WITHOUT CONSTANT 'HANDS-ON' control by a human operator being required." And yet Tesla's disclaimer states: "Tesla requires drivers to remain engaged and aware when Aut…

Is it even useful if it's merely assisting the driver, though? I haven't used it, but actively steering a car while someone else is also actively steering it sounds pretty terrible. If you're not actively steering it but just waiting to take over if things go poorly, things also seem like they'd be difficult. Other than getting in an accident, how is a person supposed to know when autopilot is doing it's thing correc…

> but actively steering a car while someone else is also actively steering it sounds pretty terrible.

My passat has most assist systems and I like how it steers. It tries very hard to get my attention and get my hands back on the steering wheel. It barely lets me keep my hands 15 seconds of the wheel but this is perfect for what it's designed to do: keep you in the lane if you are being distracted by something (eg: baby).

Even more it has various modes to get your attention back including detecting tiredness and inability to hold the steering wheel on the lane.

Re: Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana

#152

Post by kbart »

yes_or_gnome wrote: post #61
itg wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or you can test the cars the way Google does, without involving the public and having deaths on your hand from overhyping your product. https://www.google.com/selfdrivingcar/reports/

There are tens of thousands of people either walking or driving the streets of Mountain View and Sunnyvale where Google is testing its self-driving cars. So, the members of the public are at risk. But, I understand that you mean behind the wheel. Which is fun because the Google cars do not have a wheel. As I'm sure you may know, instead of a traditional steering wheel they have horizontally mounted, valve wheel with…

Also, Google doesn't drive it's test car on highway speeds with humans inside. Google self-driving car's speed is limited to 25 mph, so even if it hit something, potential that it would be lethal is very slim.

Re: Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana

#153

Post by agumonkey »

readams wrote: post #12
taneq wrote: post #5

> "As road conditions became increasingly uncertain, the vehicle again alerted the driver to put his hands on the wheel," said Tesla. "He did not do so and shortly thereafter the vehicle collided with a post on the edge of the roadway." If the autopilot's confidence was dropping that rapidly, why did it not slow the vehicle? If it hits zero confidence it should halt completely until the driver restarts the car in man…

I think you'll find suddenly braking in the middle of the road poses its own dangers.

Sure, but it's probably easy to check for the system that slowing, even a bit fast, is less dangerous than full frontal collision with a post.

Re: Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana

#154

Post by the_mitsuhiko »

studentrob wrote: post #77
heurist wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what it does - it alerts drivers, and when their hands are off for some amount of time the car will pull off to the shoulder and stop until your hands are back on the wheel (IIRC).

What's the interval between when you take your hands off and it decides to pull over? From what I've seen in discussions and videos, it's pretty long. Other car manufacturers seem to only allow a few seconds.

I think about three minutes. My VW Passat demands the hands back on the steering wheel after 15 seconds or so I believe. Same experience driving a recent Audi.

Re: Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana

#155

Post by studentrob »

Retra wrote: post #131
studentrob wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are tens of thousands of people either walking or driving the streets of Mountain View and Sunnyvale where Google is testing its self-driving cars. So, the members of the public are at risk. There is a huge difference between Google operating a handful of cars in certain areas and Tesla selling 10-20 thousand vehicles per month that can be operated by untrained consumers anywhere in the US. Tesla is using its…

>untrained consumers Licensed drivers. Drivers who have a license that indicates that they will take responsibility for the actions of any vehicle they control and understand how to operate any features which may put themselves or others at risk.

> Drivers who have a license that indicates that they will take responsibility

The fact that customers are licensed does not mean the seller is free from any and all regulation. Gun owners are licensed, and guns are required to have safety switches. Cars have a long history of being regulated [1]

Basically, anything that can contribute to deaths is going to monitored closely by consumer protection bureaus, and will probably be heavily regulated.

[1] http://www.pophistorydig.com/topics/g-m-ralph-nader1965-1971...

Re: Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana

#157

Post by [deleted] »

gaur wrote: post #128
Animats wrote: post #109

With three accidents on "autopilot" in a short period, the defects in Tesla's design are becoming clear. 1. Tesla's "hands on wheel" enforcement is much weaker than their competitors. BMW, Volvo, and Mercedes have similar systems, but after a few seconds of hands-off-wheel, the vehicle will start to slow. Tesla allows minutes of hands-off time; one customer reports driving 50 miles without touching the wheel. Tesla i…

> Tesla allows minutes of hands-off time; one customer reports driving 50 miles without touching the wheel. How are these numbers compatible with each other? Was the car going at >1000 miles per hour?

[deleted]

Re: Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana

#158

Post by kirrent »

witty_username wrote: post #106
staunch wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's a good enough name for airplanes, it's a good enough names for cars. Both require users to be ready to take control at any moment.

Pilots (require certification and extensive training) are different from car drivers.

No doubt, but both groups need to supervise their Autopilots because autopilots of any kind have always been supervised. That's the point the grandparent is making.

Re: Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana

#159

Post by dingaling »

woofyman wrote: post #27
Bromskloss wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> drivers should stay alert and keep their hands on the wheel What is then the point of having an autopilot?

As a backup to you. Not the other way around.

Flight International, August 1934:

The relief which is afforded to the pilot by the use of the Automatic Pilot permits him to devote the greater part of his time to navigation, map reading, and the operation of his radio installation, whereas with manual control, his whole time is occupied with the actual flying of the aircraft.

That was the original intent of Autopilot: offload the mechanics of flying so that the pilots could concentrate on finding their destination even at night or in bad weather: conditions in which the autopilot was also immensely superior to an infallible and easily-confused human, not the other way about as we see with systems such as Tesla's.

They didn't have to keep their hands on the controls, they could trust that the machine could handle everything except the one-in-one-million scenario.

Re: Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana

#160

Post by studentrob »

Animats wrote: post #109

With three accidents on "autopilot" in a short period, the defects in Tesla's design are becoming clear. 1. Tesla's "hands on wheel" enforcement is much weaker than their competitors. BMW, Volvo, and Mercedes have similar systems, but after a few seconds of hands-off-wheel, the vehicle will start to slow. Tesla allows minutes of hands-off time; one customer reports driving 50 miles without touching the wheel. Tesla i…

> In comparison, when a Google self-driving car bumped a bus at 2mph, Google admitted fault, took the blame, and Urmson gave a talk at SXSW showing the data from the sensors and discussing how the self-driving car misjudged the likely behavior of the bus.

This is what we should be trumpeting. Responsibility, honesty, and transparency. Google's self driving car project reports [1] should be the standard. They're published monthly and they detail every crash *per requirement by CA state law (thanks schiffern).

Note: These reports are currently only required in California, and only for fully autonomous vehicles. So, Tesla and other driver-assist-capable car companies do not need to publicize accident reports in the same way. Tesla may be unlikely to start filing such reports until everyone is required to do so. We should demand this of all cars that are driver-assist during this "beta" phase.

Tesla owners and investors ought to be interested in a little more transparency at this point. It's a bit concerning that Tesla/Musk did not file an 8-k on the Florida accident. We learned about it from NHTSA almost two months after it happened.

[1] https://www.google.com/selfdrivingcar/reports/

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