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Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana

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Re: Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana

#71

I hate to say it, but there are going to be some deaths on the road to full autonomous cars. (no pun intended) The problem I see is, Tesla is the only one actively testing autonomous driving. The fact that over 100 million miles driven, and we're finally starting to see accidents, is a good sign.

> The problem I see is, Tesla is the only one actively testing autonomous driving.

And that is the problem right there. Tesla is "testing" a feature that is being shipped to consumers in a finished product. They are providing the most minimal of safety training regarding the feature, and not even enforcing simple technological measures to make the car safer in this mode (e.g. making sure your hand is on the wheel. They have the sensors in place that test this already, and yet they do nothing with that data).

So essentially, the users are beta testers. They are testing the limits of the sensors. Looks like they don't work on white colored trucks blocking the highway. Sorry you were decapitated, we'll fix that ASAP though!

This is what happens when you bring the "work fast and break things" mentality to an area where "break things" means "people die".

To be clear, I am very pro autonomous car technology. I am a robotics engineer. I've worked on these systems. But this is the exactly wrong way to bring them to market. As more people die due to tesla's autopilot not being a true autopilot, it will color the public's view to reject this technology before it's even mature enough to save lives.

Re: Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana

#72

I hate to say it, but there are going to be some deaths on the road to full autonomous cars. (no pun intended) The problem I see is, Tesla is the only one actively testing autonomous driving. The fact that over 100 million miles driven, and we're finally starting to see accidents, is a good sign.

They could run a lot of data collection while only providing the (presumably safer) automation level of other high-end cars.

Re: Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana

#73
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Takata airbags have been in the news the last several years because at least two people have died and more than a hundred have been injured. I've heard commenters opine that this "could mean the end of Takata as a company." But I haven't heard anyone say this "could mean the end of airbags as a feature in cars." I guess what the Tesla autopilot needs is a lot of good publicity every time it avoids an accident which a…

> I guess what the Tesla autopilot needs is a lot of good publicity every time it avoids an accident which a human driver would otherwise have actually caused. Even if that happened, people will cling to the negative news much more than the positive news, aka Negativity Bias. Even if Tesla has a stellar record overall, one bad incident, especially with a somewhat unknown technology, will be much more in people's mind…

Right. I think that's true.

And yet, people are killed virtually every day by car accidents, but nowadays there's no serious legal effort to ban all cars.

How did humanity overcome its fear of cars in the first place? That same process is the one autosteer needs to undergo.

Re: Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana

#74
post #25

TIL: car crashes happen. but because it's Tesla it gets 100x the attention

That's not really why this is getting attention. The core issue here is that Tesla is shipping a product called "autopilot", which gives the expectation that it is in fact an autopilot. In the background, people are hearing that autonomous cars are "3 years away!!!" so the expectation is that the Tesla Autopilot feature is the real deal. Thus you have people watching movies, falling asleep, or driving on dangerous ro…

> The core issue here is that Tesla is shipping a product called "autopilot", which gives the expectation that it is in fact an autopilot.

An autopilot system is defined as a system that assists, but does not replace, the human operator of a vehicle. Therefore Tesla's system is, in fact, an autopilot.

Re: Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana

#75
post #29

I wrote this on a previously buried thread: Naming their system "autopilot" goes beyond the marketing dept overstepping and into the territory of irresponsibility. The "average" definition of autopilot per Wikipedia is "autopilot is a system used. . . WITHOUT CONSTANT 'HANDS-ON' control by a human operator being required." And yet Tesla's disclaimer states: "Tesla requires drivers to remain engaged and aware when Aut…

I'd like to see a survey of how many Tesla drivers think Tesla advocates complete cession of control to Autopilot. My suspicion is zero.

Based on the times I've seen people staring down at their phones on the 280, it's definitely much higher than 0.

Re: Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana

#76
post #5

> "As road conditions became increasingly uncertain, the vehicle again alerted the driver to put his hands on the wheel," said Tesla. "He did not do so and shortly thereafter the vehicle collided with a post on the edge of the roadway." If the autopilot's confidence was dropping that rapidly, why did it not slow the vehicle? If it hits zero confidence it should halt completely until the driver restarts the car in man…

Because this sort of auto->manual transition of control does not work [1]. 1: https://www.amazon.com/Our-Robots-Ourselves-Robotics-Autonom...

Any notable quotes or stats from the book? I'd guess some of Tesla's stock value is tied up in the idea that the auto-manual transition of control does work.

Re: Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana

#77
post #67
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They should change the name to "driver assist" or something more accurate given that mis-interpreting the system's function can lead to death of the driver or others. While I definitely agree on the name change, it should be accompanied by a feature change. In its current mode, and especially if people know it has been renamed, the same stuff will happen. When you take your hands off the wheel, it turn on warning l…

That's what it does - it alerts drivers, and when their hands are off for some amount of time the car will pull off to the shoulder and stop until your hands are back on the wheel (IIRC).

What's the interval between when you take your hands off and it decides to pull over? From what I've seen in discussions and videos, it's pretty long. Other car manufacturers seem to only allow a few seconds.

Re: Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana

#78
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Takata airbags have been in the news the last several years because at least two people have died and more than a hundred have been injured. I've heard commenters opine that this "could mean the end of Takata as a company." But I haven't heard anyone say this "could mean the end of airbags as a feature in cars." I guess what the Tesla autopilot needs is a lot of good publicity every time it avoids an accident which a…

> I guess what the Tesla autopilot needs is a lot of good publicity every time it avoids an accident which a human driver would otherwise have actually caused. Sounds like a plan! Let's start right now. Here's an example of the autopilot dodging a reckless driver and avoiding a collision that many human drivers wouldn't have avoided: https://youtu.be/9I5rraWJq6E

That's a video by the guy who died.. Some have argued he could've been more aware of the incoming truck due to its short amount of time to make its desired transition from left to right. Also the camera was positioned farther forward than the driver's eyes.

Re: Tesla confirms “Autopilot” crash in Montana

#80
post #2

From the Article: > The driver in Montana was headed from Seattle to Yellowstone National Park when he crashed on a two-lane highway near Cardwell. ..."It's a winding road going through a canyon, with no shoulder" From the Tesla Owners Manual: > Traffic-Aware Cruise Control is primarily intended for driving on dry, straight roads, such as highways and freeways. ... > Autosteer is particularly unlikely to operate as i…

Can autopilot not tell a straight road from a curvy road? If it can, why does it apply throttle when it detects that it is driving in a type of road it cannot handle?

I don't think the car tells the user whether it can handle the road or not. It just sends alerts when it needs help.

Humans are the guinea pig for Tesla. They want this data of their system driving outside its normal bounds. Otherwise yes Tesla would disable autopilot on unapproved roads.

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