UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears • Hacker News Board

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#191

Post by programLyrique » Tue, Jul 12, 2016, 3:51 PM UTC

misja111 wrote: post #86

codecurve wrote: post #25

I just finished an EU funded CompSci Masters degree in Wales, the poorest country in the UK and it's devastatingly sad to think that once the EU research funding stops, those opportunities will be gone forever for future students coming through the department. There aren't enough large tech companies in the area for there to be any sponsored degrees available, which probably means that when the funding finishes, the…

The UK is a net payer to the EU. For instance in 2015 alone, UK's net payment to the EU was about 8.5 billion pounds. So after the Brexit there will be more than enough money to continue the research funding. But as you mention already, it is another question if the government will be wanting to pay it. But is this really such a bad thing? The difference will that instead of the EU, the UK itself will decide which of…

EU research funding is also a huge incentive for collaborative research between research groups in various European countries, pooling talents from all over Europe.

Research needs international collaboration, and UK funding only would make it more difficult.

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#192

Post by sievebrain » Tue, Jul 12, 2016, 3:51 PM UTC

barrkel wrote: post #181

sievebrain wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the past when it was smaller, yes. Nowadays, not so much. Perhaps that's Juncker, or perhaps it's the fact that it's now so large. See how Cameron's negotiation went (or rather, didn't). Besides, most of the compromises were simply not forcing the UK to do new things. That's only seen as a compromise because the EU is run by people who believe every member should be forcibly 'harmonised' through automatic implemen…

If you don't mandate implementation, you don't have a level playing field; you have a race to the bottom on everything from tax levels to working laws to product standards. Game theoretically, everybody loses in a race to the bottom. There would be no point in an EU that couldn't mandate laws.

The EU does not control tax law, yet apparently lots of people believe it still has a point. The EU cannot mandate tax or worker rights outside of the EU either. So the only way to stop a "race to the bottom" is to become entirely protectionist and go full North Korea.

Suffice it to say, the EU could have taken many structures that are not the one it has now.

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#193

Post by pjc50 » Tue, Jul 12, 2016, 3:53 PM UTC

jerf wrote: post #55

vmateixeira wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"...fiscal and banking mismanagement in Greece/Italy/Spain/Portugual are destroying German and British wealth" Source?

Every conversation we've had about the EU for the last five years or so. The entire world has been talking about the relative lack of wisdom of trying to hold the entire EU to one currency for a long time, financial mismanagement, Germany strong-arming Greece into plans not good for them while Greece holds the threat of leaving over the entire EU to get better deals, and all sorts of such financial issues for a long…

Before Brexit, the EU had all kinds of problems. Now suddenly they've all been solved, apparently

Of course they haven't. But they're either problems which would exist without the EU (Syrian refugees) or problems of the Eurozone (which the UK has opted out of).

Greece had the opportunity to exit and didn't. I think because they realised that, although being in debt to the EU is bad, not being able to borrow money at all is worse.

The EU is not perfect (and the Eurozone is actually quite bad), but leaving it doesn't make it go away, doesn't address the problems that the EU is supposed to address.

To me, the dead giveaway is that nobody in the UK wants to 'own' Brexit. Farage, Johnson, Gove et al have all resigned and vanished. Why is that?

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#194

Post by diego_moita » Tue, Jul 12, 2016, 3:53 PM UTC

Chris2048 wrote: post #172

diego_moita wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> She was selected Or, maybe, the only thing Brexiters know how to do with problems and responsibilities is to "exit"/run away from them? (e.g.: Johnson, Farage, Leadsom,...)

Slur on "Brexiters" aside, the government called a referendum - it has the responsibility of a plan. Otherwise, who foots the bill for such a plan?

> the government [...] has the responsibility of a plan

Uh, .... are you implying the Brexiters never had a plan?

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#195

Post by Oletros » Tue, Jul 12, 2016, 3:53 PM UTC

sievebrain wrote: post #118

DasIch wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if the UK had the people to start trade negotiations right this second, they're not allowed to until they leave the EU and it takes years to negotiate such an agreement. It would take decades for the UK to catch up to the EU on trade agreements again, if they ever do.

The UK can negotiate deals before exit, just under EU law it can't sign them. However, why obey EU rules when you're about to leave? The only reason to do this would be to leave on good terms. But the EU sees Brexit as a betrayal that must be punished severely to try and scare other countries into not leaving. There are no "good terms" by their choice, not the UK's. So the UK should start immediately violating whatev…

> But the EU sees Brexit as a betrayal that must be punished severely to try and scare other countries into not leaving.

No, don't having the same deal while outside of the EU is not punishing.

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#196

Post by ig1 » Tue, Jul 12, 2016, 3:53 PM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #138

codecurve wrote: post #25

I just finished an EU funded CompSci Masters degree in Wales, the poorest country in the UK and it's devastatingly sad to think that once the EU research funding stops, those opportunities will be gone forever for future students coming through the department. There aren't enough large tech companies in the area for there to be any sponsored degrees available, which probably means that when the funding finishes, the…

Couple of things: The UK has premier scientists. The EU would be remiss to not find a way to work things out. If not, I'm sure other places will pick them up. These are field leading scientists. Two, upper middle class still don't get it. They're still tone deaf. The Brexit was the working class demanding what was promised them, which was prosperity that never came. Instead they got sold out for a cheaper European wo…

Except there's no evidence for that, it's been thrown around by the media as it's a good story but the data doesn't support that hypothesis.

Pensioners voted heavily for leave and they've benefited hugely over the last few decades. In the 1980s around 50% of pensioners lived in absolute poverty, it's now around 15%.

The vote is far more complex than can be explained in a simple sound-bite, and pretending it's just one thing be that xenophobia or worsening conditions it vastly over-simplifying a hugely complex issue where many different groups voted for different reasons.

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#197

Post by djlastword » Tue, Jul 12, 2016, 3:54 PM UTC

rwmj wrote: post #176

djlastword wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're underestimating the psychological aspect of Brexit. We Europeans feel betrayed and abandoned by the Brits. Especially since they always demanded and got special deals on everything EU-related anyway. Their arrogance will finally get to them. Plus we have access to another 27 countries so the loss will not be huge for us. No matter when official negotiations start, trade and other collaboration will sta…

Please don't view everyone in the UK as one "thing", as if all British people are (in your words) arrogant. 48% of people voted to remain in the EU.

I was referring more to the leadership than the people. If you're a bremainer I genuinely sympathise with you.

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#198

Post by Xylakant » Tue, Jul 12, 2016, 3:55 PM UTC

wildmusings wrote: post #190

neximo64 wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The next steps will actually be France will give up its seat and the EU will take it up. The UK was also going to give it up (alongside its WTO seat) which was what drove Cameron's 'ever closer union' clause.

I think the only "next steps" for the EU is a frantic attempt to not crumble. The National Front and Alternative for Germany are gaining fast.

The AFD actually lost a few percent in the last polls.

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#199

Post by Oletros » Tue, Jul 12, 2016, 3:55 PM UTC

sievebrain wrote: post #152

DasIch wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU has compromised, especially with the UK, on a lot of things.

In the past when it was smaller, yes. Nowadays, not so much. Perhaps that's Juncker, or perhaps it's the fact that it's now so large. See how Cameron's negotiation went (or rather, didn't). Besides, most of the compromises were simply not forcing the UK to do new things. That's only seen as a compromise because the EU is run by people who believe every member should be forcibly 'harmonised' through automatic implemen…

> If the EU was more like a standards body that simply recommended laws instead of mandating their implementation, there would be no need for allowing alternatives to be seen as "compromise" \ Then why have an EU?

The problem for the UK is that they always want have all the benefits but they don't want all the duties.

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#200

Post by programLyrique » Tue, Jul 12, 2016, 3:56 PM UTC

sievebrain wrote: post #126

barrkel wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We all know this. The UK has been funding a bureaucracy in the EU that in turn funds projects in impoverished areas of the UK (amongst others). It will need to replace that bureaucracy; the transaction and planning costs on everything on the drawing board to in progress right now, will not be cheap, quite apart from the direct funding costs. The replacement bureaucracy probably won't be cheaper either, since it will…

That's not how EU funding works. It distributes funds with many rules attached, but implementing those rules is the job of local government bureaucracies not the EU. The EU regional development funds are notoriously wasteful, I wouldn't ascribe any value to scale or institutional experience.

> The EU regional development funds are notoriously wasteful

Can you give references? Preferably not only one anecdotical example, and with comparisons with state development funds (especially from the UK).