UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears • Hacker News Board

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#131

Post by jerf » Tue, Jul 12, 2016, 2:58 PM UTC

vmateixeira wrote: post #80

jerf wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every conversation we've had about the EU for the last five years or so. The entire world has been talking about the relative lack of wisdom of trying to hold the entire EU to one currency for a long time, financial mismanagement, Germany strong-arming Greece into plans not good for them while Greece holds the threat of leaving over the entire EU to get better deals, and all sorts of such financial issues for a long…

I'm not saying that countries should or should not get out of the EU. I would just like to see some concrete evidences of Greece/Italy/Spain/Portugal on destroying German and British wealth.

You're setting a standard that can't be met by anyone. Any "concrete evidence" would have to provide concrete evidence of a hypothetical. But it isn't that bizarre of an idea that Germany could be better off if it wasn't tied to much weaker economies through a shared currency. Of course the problem here is that the situation is so large you can find not-quite-concrete evidence for almost any proposition.

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#132

Post by EliRivers » Tue, Jul 12, 2016, 2:59 PM UTC

misja111 wrote: post #86

codecurve wrote: post #25

I just finished an EU funded CompSci Masters degree in Wales, the poorest country in the UK and it's devastatingly sad to think that once the EU research funding stops, those opportunities will be gone forever for future students coming through the department. There aren't enough large tech companies in the area for there to be any sponsored degrees available, which probably means that when the funding finishes, the…

The UK is a net payer to the EU. For instance in 2015 alone, UK's net payment to the EU was about 8.5 billion pounds. So after the Brexit there will be more than enough money to continue the research funding. But as you mention already, it is another question if the government will be wanting to pay it. But is this really such a bad thing? The difference will that instead of the EU, the UK itself will decide which of…

"But is this really such a bad thing? The difference will that instead of the EU, the UK itself will decide which of its research projects it wants to fund."

Speaking purely for myself, as a UK resident, I believe that the UK government will be significantly more populist and far more short-term in its thinking, and I expect to see research massively cut (with associated long-term damage) in favour of tax cuts and pandering. So in one man's view, this is such a bad thing.

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#133

Post by lhnz » Tue, Jul 12, 2016, 2:59 PM UTC

tankenmate wrote: post #117

lhnz wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK isn't a protectionist state, they'll do what they can to ensure global free trade. Firstly, to keep access to the EU's 'single market', and secondly to attempt agile free trade with other countries around the world. It'll be interesting to look in 10 years and see who is more protectionist and less open.

But of course that means staying in the EEA for the moment at least; which means freedom of movement, EU regulations, but now with much reduced influence... CETA for example took 5.5 years to negotiate and of course it still needs to be ratified. On the other hand if the UK leaves the EU and the EEA then under EU rules it will need to wait until it fully leaves before it can negotiate a CETA style trade agreement. In…

Freedom of movement is actually a fairly good thing, though.

> EU regulations, but now without (sic) much reduced influence

You are misinformed, please read '1. "No Say"' of 'The Case For The EEA Option' [0]:

  The next level of argument surrounding “no say” is that
  despite not having a vote in EU institutions, EEA countries
  have some ability to protect their own interests from EU law.
  They retain a “right of reservation” - a veto - as set out in
  Article 102 of the EEA agreement and thus have the right
  to opt out of new EU legislation. This is a right that the
  UK as an EU member does not have.

That is just a single point against the 'no say' argument. There is a lot more discussed within that article, including how influence is generally exerted "upstream".

> Under EU rules it will need to wait until it fully leaves before it can negotiate a CETA style trade agreement.

Yet preliminary talks over global trade are already happening.

Trade agreements can be agreed faster than the length of time it takes to agree big complex EU-style agreements anyway [1].

[0] http://www.adamsmith.org/evolution-not-revolution

[1] http://www.adamsmith.org/free-trade-agile-trade/

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#134

Post by billpg » Tue, Jul 12, 2016, 2:59 PM UTC

sievebrain wrote: post #118

DasIch wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if the UK had the people to start trade negotiations right this second, they're not allowed to until they leave the EU and it takes years to negotiate such an agreement. It would take decades for the UK to catch up to the EU on trade agreements again, if they ever do.

The UK can negotiate deals before exit, just under EU law it can't sign them. However, why obey EU rules when you're about to leave? The only reason to do this would be to leave on good terms. But the EU sees Brexit as a betrayal that must be punished severely to try and scare other countries into not leaving. There are no "good terms" by their choice, not the UK's. So the UK should start immediately violating whatev…

"Can we be sure you're going to stick to this trade agreement?"

"Why would you think we wouldn't?"

"You're breaking your treaty with the EU."

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#135

Post by sievebrain » Tue, Jul 12, 2016, 2:59 PM UTC

tobltobs wrote: post #121

sievebrain wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes no sense for relations between countries to be structured as an exclusive "club". This just retards progress and leads to stagnation when it becomes impossible to get all the members of the "club" to agree.

Don't tell this the Scotts ...

The UK is not a club and has clear power structures that mean there is no need to get Scotland to agree to things in order for them to happen, as evidenced by the referendum.

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#136

Post by DasIch » Tue, Jul 12, 2016, 2:59 PM UTC

sievebrain wrote: post #118

DasIch wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if the UK had the people to start trade negotiations right this second, they're not allowed to until they leave the EU and it takes years to negotiate such an agreement. It would take decades for the UK to catch up to the EU on trade agreements again, if they ever do.

The UK can negotiate deals before exit, just under EU law it can't sign them. However, why obey EU rules when you're about to leave? The only reason to do this would be to leave on good terms. But the EU sees Brexit as a betrayal that must be punished severely to try and scare other countries into not leaving. There are no "good terms" by their choice, not the UK's. So the UK should start immediately violating whatev…

The EU is a huge group of people with a huge range of opinions on Brexit. It's not clear at all that the EU will try to inflict as much damage as possible. It wouldn't be a very good idea either because that would hurt the EU as well. There's almost certainly going to be a compromise of some kind.

I doubt any trade agreements the UK might be able to get, would be worth the backlash of turning the EU into an enemy. Especially considering that anyone the UK would want to trade with, probably doesn't also want to harm their relationship to the EU. That last point alone probably ensures that nobody is going to start trade discussions with the UK anyway until after they leave.

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#137

Post by sievebrain » Tue, Jul 12, 2016, 3:00 PM UTC

anonymousDan wrote: post #128

sievebrain wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU doesn't "fund" anything, the UK funds the EU by paying in more than it gets back out. It's literally the UK's own money being recycled through Brussels, except with extra rules and exchange rate risks thrown in. Whether or not research funding is cut is an entirely open question right now. Maybe it will be: the EU has effectively been overriding the austerity policies everyone else in the economy has had to de…

Eh? Academia has definitely been hit hard by austerity like the rest of the public sector. There have been basically no pay rises since the Tories came in.

If you think "basically no pay rises" is what austerity means then I think you just proved my point for me ...

edit: To clarify (given the telling off below), the rest of the public sector in the UK has seen massive budget cuts with 20, 30, 40% loss not being uncommon in some departments, or in the BEST case (like the NHS) large workload increases with extremely small or no budget increases. It's hard for me to imagine how anyone could be unaware of that given the amount of coverage of it over the last 8 years.

So when someone says "no pay rises" is the same thing as being hit hard by austerity, that shows a remarkable level of disconnection from what's going on elsewhere.

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#138

Post by mc32 » Tue, Jul 12, 2016, 3:05 PM UTC

codecurve wrote: post #25

I just finished an EU funded CompSci Masters degree in Wales, the poorest country in the UK and it's devastatingly sad to think that once the EU research funding stops, those opportunities will be gone forever for future students coming through the department. There aren't enough large tech companies in the area for there to be any sponsored degrees available, which probably means that when the funding finishes, the…

Couple of things: The UK has premier scientists. The EU would be remiss to not find a way to work things out. If not, I'm sure other places will pick them up. These are field leading scientists.

Two, upper middle class still don't get it. They're still tone deaf. The Brexit was the working class demanding what was promised them, which was prosperity that never came. Instead they got sold out for a cheaper European work force (not faulting the Poles for wanting better, if just is) while the middle upper classes (professional class) got to enjoy the spoils and got to snicker at the working class for being upended by outsiders.

The professional class are now complaining that they will lose their privileged position... A position the working class never got to taste. So, there it is, they called in the promise and foolish or not, they at least are doing it by their own hands rather than that of the tone deaf professional class who never cared for the working class.

Of course, the professional class, showing their class in style, as they are wont to do, go about castigating the working class by telling them how provincial and selfish they are... But just look who is complaining about losing their privileged status.

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#139

Post by sievebrain » Tue, Jul 12, 2016, 3:06 PM UTC

SlashmanX wrote: post #130

sievebrain wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WTO max tariffs (worst case scenario) are 4%. But the currency has weaked by about 8%. So even if max tariffs are applied tomorrow, UK goods are still cheaper to buy in the EU than before! In practice, if the EU doesn't strike a deal with the UK (which it won't) then I think it will suffer more exits. Because the EU has spent years trying to sign free trade deals with America, Canada and other places. If it turns aro…

If they do give a deal to the UK wouldn't that trigger more exits? If countries see they can leave the EU and still get a trade deal they'd be more likely to leave than if they saw the UK get shafted (so to speak).

Yes, that's why the EU is doomed and will be gone within a decade no matter what they do now.

It is a fundamentally unattractive entity. The people who run it have never even tried to combat rising anti-EU feeling across the continent, as they believe the EU is inevitable and unstoppable, so why bother trying to make it more popular.

Now it's probably too late: they've become so gripped by groupthink they can't reform quickly enough even if they wanted to, hence the focus is now 100% on trying to make leaving as scary as possible vs trying to make staying in as attractive as possible.

In the long run this is a failing strategy. The EU is unresponsive and so makes mistakes that upset local populations. In the UK it was migration policy. The latest was telling Spain and Portugal they'd be punished for breaking rules that France and Germany also break punishment free. That's not going down well.

The combination of a retention policy based on fear rather than respect + a succession of local gaffes do not bode well for the future of the union.

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#140

Post by djlastword » Tue, Jul 12, 2016, 3:07 PM UTC

There is nothing discriminatory about this. They broke up with us and are on their way out, of course we're not going to keep paying their bills.

I think there is a lot of truth in this "British organisations will have to bring more to the table to justify the risk of them being included in a consortium", not only related to science but business in general. If EU businesses are supposed to trade with non EU members, of course they need to offer more.