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UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

theguardian.com

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Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#111

Post by pjc50 »

sievebrain wrote: post #98
ck425 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't deny there will be less funding, given the amount of funding we receive from the EU. Though hopefully the new PM will prioritise investment in research and hopefully given the strong technology sector in the UK CompSci will get a reasonable share of it. But that's still to be seen and given May's attitude toward technology experts and level of knowledge during the discussions around the Snoopers Charter I'm…

The EU doesn't "fund" anything, the UK funds the EU by paying in more than it gets back out. It's literally the UK's own money being recycled through Brussels, except with extra rules and exchange rate risks thrown in. Whether or not research funding is cut is an entirely open question right now. Maybe it will be: the EU has effectively been overriding the austerity policies everyone else in the economy has had to de…

as no policies have been announced yet, nobody can know what will happen

Yes, and this is the short-term disaster of Brexit: much investment goes on hold until we know what will happen.

It might be better in the long run, but we have no idea what the long run will look like at the moment because there was no Brexit manifesto and a serious conflict between the "EEA" Brexit and the anti-immigrant Brexit.

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#112

Post by onion2k »

wrong_variable wrote: post #19

Large Multinationals like Unilever, even for incremental decisions - like changing the type of light bulb, takes years to execute. This is why a large change in their business is so difficult and you need a very good CEO ( ask Marissa Mayer ) The decision UK made to leave the EU is akin for Unilever to switch from selling shampoos to selling software - and we are not talking about a multinational with 100,000 employe…

usually the horizon for bringing new laws into action are declared ahead of time by 4-5 years to give people/businesses time to plan.

There's a legal requirement as part of the Lisbon treaty that as soon as a country invokes Article 50 (leaving the EU) they have 2 years to negotiate treaties with all parties involved, after which all existing EU treaties with that country cease to apply. That means, from the day the government invokes Article 50, there is a maximum of 2 years access to EU funding for any science project in the UK. Any project that will take longer than that has pretty much zero chance of getting funded in the first place. Given the fact that Theresa May might invoke Article 50 on Thursday, getting a long term project funded is going to be impossible.

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#113

Post by raugustinus »

diego_moita wrote: post #49
ckinnan wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU's retarding democracy and human progress; European growth is non-existent, the Euro is failing, and fiscal and banking mismanagement in Greece/Italy/Spain/Portugual are destroying German and British wealth. Britain has almost all of the world-class research universities in the European Union and they will thrive outside the EU. Edit with sources: EU real per capita GDP is flat after 10 years: http://ec.europa.…

> Greece/Italy/Spain/Portugual are destroying German and British wealth Just wait and see what "destroying wealth" means. England gave up on producing food during the Industrial Revolution, gave up on imperial colonialism after WWII and gave up on manufacturing after Thatcher. Now it is giving up on the services economy. It will be interesting to see what comes out of it. Edit: Britain is not a paragon of fiscal resp…

How is the UK giving up on the services economy?

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#114

Post by [deleted] »

diego_moita wrote: post #49
ckinnan wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU's retarding democracy and human progress; European growth is non-existent, the Euro is failing, and fiscal and banking mismanagement in Greece/Italy/Spain/Portugual are destroying German and British wealth. Britain has almost all of the world-class research universities in the European Union and they will thrive outside the EU. Edit with sources: EU real per capita GDP is flat after 10 years: http://ec.europa.…

> Greece/Italy/Spain/Portugual are destroying German and British wealth Just wait and see what "destroying wealth" means. England gave up on producing food during the Industrial Revolution, gave up on imperial colonialism after WWII and gave up on manufacturing after Thatcher. Now it is giving up on the services economy. It will be interesting to see what comes out of it. Edit: Britain is not a paragon of fiscal resp…

[deleted]

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#115

Post by gambiting »

junto wrote: post #48
wrong_variable wrote: post #19

Large Multinationals like Unilever, even for incremental decisions - like changing the type of light bulb, takes years to execute. This is why a large change in their business is so difficult and you need a very good CEO ( ask Marissa Mayer ) The decision UK made to leave the EU is akin for Unilever to switch from selling shampoos to selling software - and we are not talking about a multinational with 100,000 employe…

> Not only will the EU trade treaty need to be renegotiated, but so does the 50 other trade treaty with other nations - those treaties took a lot of time and over 600+ negotiators to write, the UK only have 30 negotiators and about 2 years. The UK hasn't done their own trade negotiations for over 30 years. The EU has. They haven't got the right people with the right experience to do this (yet). They need to hire the…

I think it was BBC that said that UK government has literally just 6(yes, six) people who have any sort of experience in international trade negotiations, since UK hasn't done it alone in so long.

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#116

Post by NetStrikeForce »

wyager wrote: post #11

This sounds more like political retaliatory BS than actual financial concerns. End the project when you lose funding, not in anticipation of losing funding at some point in the future.

Dude, you didn't even read the article.

These projects might not start until 2-3 years from now and are definitely not ending before that. At that time the UK won't be part of the EU.

Why would you waste money in something that has no benefit for anyone? Not even for the UK scientists.

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#117

Post by tankenmate »

lhnz wrote: post #100
Blahah wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup, and only naively accounts for the cash flow. It doesn't consider any of the downstream benefits of the single market, free movement, or coherent continental legislation which together will completely swamp the measly £140m/week net cash contribution we make.

The UK isn't a protectionist state, they'll do what they can to ensure global free trade. Firstly, to keep access to the EU's 'single market', and secondly to attempt agile free trade with other countries around the world. It'll be interesting to look in 10 years and see who is more protectionist and less open.

But of course that means staying in the EEA for the moment at least; which means freedom of movement, EU regulations, but now with much reduced influence... CETA for example took 5.5 years to negotiate and of course it still needs to be ratified.

On the other hand if the UK leaves the EU and the EEA then under EU rules it will need to wait until it fully leaves before it can negotiate a CETA style trade agreement. In the mean time one could assume that UK / EU trade would follow WTO norms.

[EDIT] fixed typo

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#118

Post by sievebrain »

DasIch wrote: post #106
junto wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not only will the EU trade treaty need to be renegotiated, but so does the 50 other trade treaty with other nations - those treaties took a lot of time and over 600+ negotiators to write, the UK only have 30 negotiators and about 2 years. The UK hasn't done their own trade negotiations for over 30 years. The EU has. They haven't got the right people with the right experience to do this (yet). They need to hire the…

Even if the UK had the people to start trade negotiations right this second, they're not allowed to until they leave the EU and it takes years to negotiate such an agreement. It would take decades for the UK to catch up to the EU on trade agreements again, if they ever do.

The UK can negotiate deals before exit, just under EU law it can't sign them.

However, why obey EU rules when you're about to leave? The only reason to do this would be to leave on good terms. But the EU sees Brexit as a betrayal that must be punished severely to try and scare other countries into not leaving. There are no "good terms" by their choice, not the UK's.

So the UK should start immediately violating whatever EU rules are convenient to do so, once Article 50 is invoked.

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#119

Post by giardini »

codecurve wrote: post #25

I just finished an EU funded CompSci Masters degree in Wales, the poorest country in the UK and it's devastatingly sad to think that once the EU research funding stops, those opportunities will be gone forever for future students coming through the department. There aren't enough large tech companies in the area for there to be any sponsored degrees available, which probably means that when the funding finishes, the…

"...the research will start to dry up and the interesting researchers will leave with it. Take away the research and what's left is a department of third-rate lecturers. That's not an inspiring way to learn."

Do researchers in Wales teach much anyway? I know that, in the USA, researchers teach as little as possible.

Schools should get back to the proper job of teaching students. Research is best done by private institutions with their own funding. Government education funding should be used for education proper, not fluffing a featherbed for Nobel laureates.

Re: UK scientists dropped from EU projects because of post-Brexit funding fears

#120

Post by sievebrain »

pjc50 wrote: post #82
sievebrain wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So tell the EU to let British universities continue to participate regardless of EU membership. If you believe they will say no for purely political reasons, then there's the problem. There are lots of academic collaborations that span the globe. It's only the EU that artificially ties quantum computing research to immigration policies. edit: There is a massive amount of political downvoting going on in this thread.…

As the sibling comment points out, the participation involves money. If the UK stops paying into the EU, it stops recieving payouts.

But it hasn't stopped paying in money, and the EU could easily strike a separate deal to allow continued participation in Horizon 2020 if it wanted to.

My point stands: the EU allocates research funding based on political concerns that have nothing to do with science. And that needs to stop.

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