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The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

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Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#71

Post by sremani »

cplanas wrote: post #55
sremani wrote: post #16

Why so must fascination about a homogeneous society that has population of City of Houston? I will not take some of these articles of Scandinavian fetish any seriously any more.

> homogeneous society [...] Scandinavian fetish Foreign-born population of Sweden: 16% Foreign-born population of Norway: 13.9% Foreign-born population of USA: 13.1% https://data.oecd.org/migration/foreign-born-population.htm

how convenient, to pick and make it native vs foreign born? you know better than that!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_State...

Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#72

Post by jolux »

mc32 wrote: post #37
robert_foss wrote: post #2

The American dream mantra as it is currently being regurgitated in America is little more than a cheap slogan at best and calculated lie at worst. What it is said to represent are qualities like social mobility in which America ranks amongst the very worst of the other 48 developed nations.

Hmmm. I think if the dream were killed, then there would be nothing for people to lodge a complaint against. Nothing to look forward to and so people might grow comfortable in their poverty, for example. Imagine, there is no dream. You get what you have. There is no chance for anyone who has not achieved. Don't even try, there is no chance. I think we'd be worse off with that mindset. I imagine Russia, Venezuela, etc…

What makes you think that it's not already like that for certain classes? Income mobility is historically low. Also why would people grow comfortable in their poverty? What exactly does that mean? That they've made peace with the fact that they have to choose between being dead or being broke? As long as there is poverty there will always be complaints.

Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#73

Post by Turing_Machine »

vasilipupkin wrote: post #54
Florin_Andrei wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if you are good enough for that university, you go there. As someone who grew up in EU but now I live in the US, this is something that seriously bugs me. What lesson should I teach my kids when they go to college? "Son, no matter how hard you study, or you don't study, all that matters is daddy's money to get you into college."

this is just really not the case in the US. Top universities have need blind admissions - they will subsidize for you to attend. There are in state tuition universities that are affordable, there are grants, scholarships, etc. Percentage of Americans with college degrees is really not any lower than in Europe

Yes. Just about everybody at the elite schools (e.g., Harvard) gets a significant amount of financial aid.

Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#74

Post by Retric »

aetherson wrote: post #62
Retric wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US actually found a ginormous amount of oil, which is a large part of why it's GDP is that high. We currently out produce Saudi Arabia and regained #1. https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=pet&s=m... ED: bad math. PS: The US problem was it got addicted to the stuff pumping most of it out early while the price was low and then stuck paying more during price spikes.

Well, sure. But Norway's production is 1.9 million barrels per day ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_oil_produ... ), and its population is 5.1 million, so 1.9M * 40 * 365 / 5.1M = $5.4K per person per year. The US's GDP would be yet higher if it could sustain an increase in petroleum production by 75% or so.

Sorry, redid my math. Even if you assume 5.4k/person from oil with zero costs there is a 30k/person per year difference in nominal GDP. And a much larger gap in PPP.

Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#75

Post by Retric »

Turing_Machine wrote: post #69
Retric wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PPP is the important one and we are below United Kingdom, Canada, France, Australia, and Italy which are not exactly known for oil production.

On the contrary, both the UK and Canada produce vast quantities of oil. Also, I'm not sure what numbers you're looking at. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)... shows all those countries well below the United States. The only ones above it are, again, oil and financial services countries.

List of IMF ranked countries by GDP: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_IMF_ranked_countries_b... Has different numbers.

Though, several other places don't seem to agree with those numbers. So, they may be off.

Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#76

Post by bloodorange »

gr3yh47 wrote: post #56
CalRobert wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dunno, I feel richer in Europe than I did in California. Rent in places I like living is cheaper, and I save a good $300-$600 per month on automobile costs. I also save several thousand a year on flights to Europe, since that's pretty much where I like to vacation anyway. Also, I'm fortunate enough to work in tech which has pretty good PTO policies (for now), but my spouse does not, and 4+ weeks of vacation for her…

>the US detests cyclists and disregards their deaths. to be fair, many cyclists in the US ignore traffic laws wholesale

That is no excuse for a death sentence. Many cyclists do this in the Netherlands too and in the period that I have lived there, I haven't seen them treated that way on the roads.

Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#77

Post by mc32 »

jolux wrote: post #72
mc32 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmmm. I think if the dream were killed, then there would be nothing for people to lodge a complaint against. Nothing to look forward to and so people might grow comfortable in their poverty, for example. Imagine, there is no dream. You get what you have. There is no chance for anyone who has not achieved. Don't even try, there is no chance. I think we'd be worse off with that mindset. I imagine Russia, Venezuela, etc…

What makes you think that it's not already like that for certain classes? Income mobility is historically low. Also why would people grow comfortable in their poverty? What exactly does that mean? That they've made peace with the fact that they have to choose between being dead or being broke? As long as there is poverty there will always be complaints.

Go to a poor country. See how people go about the days. It's as if there is a "place" and people "know" their place.

If you don't believe in having a stationary "place" you seek more, you tell your progeny there is more, if only they try. Go, don't be like your father or mother, go make something of yourself.

Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#78

Post by lumberjack »

jandrewrogers wrote: post #20
robert_foss wrote: post #2

The American dream mantra as it is currently being regurgitated in America is little more than a cheap slogan at best and calculated lie at worst. What it is said to represent are qualities like social mobility in which America ranks amongst the very worst of the other 48 developed nations.

Social mobility measures based on income (PPP) percentiles are misleading because they don't account for the hugely different income variances between countries. In countries with low income variances like Denmark, a small change in your absolute income will be deemed "socially mobile" whereas a much larger increase absolute income in countries with high income variances like the US will be deemed as not "socially mo…

>Individuals don't care about their ability to change their percentile, they care about their ability to change their total income. I think most individuals would prefer a "non-mobile" $60k increase in income versus a "mobile" $40k increase in income. You can't spend percentiles.

I highly dispute this. Take it as a completely different world view but I think if people were given a choice:

1 >a nominal income of $100k for you and a nominal income of $200k for all your neighbours

2 >a nominal income of $75k for you and a nominal income of $60k for all your neighbours

A lot of people would opt for choice 2. I myself am not sure whether I'd go for 1 or 2.

Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#79

Post by xiaoma »

jandrewrogers wrote: post #20
robert_foss wrote: post #2

The American dream mantra as it is currently being regurgitated in America is little more than a cheap slogan at best and calculated lie at worst. What it is said to represent are qualities like social mobility in which America ranks amongst the very worst of the other 48 developed nations.

Social mobility measures based on income (PPP) percentiles are misleading because they don't account for the hugely different income variances between countries. In countries with low income variances like Denmark, a small change in your absolute income will be deemed "socially mobile" whereas a much larger increase absolute income in countries with high income variances like the US will be deemed as not "socially mo…

>"Individuals don't care about their ability to change their percentile, they care about their ability to change their total income"

This is completely wrong. People care intensely about their pecking order (looks, money, accolades, etc). Beyond this, there are purely functional reasons to care about your relative income. Limited resources lead to competition.

Nobody cares if their GPA is higher than their parent's was. They care if it's higher than their peers who are trying to get into the same universities. Ditto for housing prices. What matters isn't the dollar value of the property you can afford, only whether or not you can afford to be in a top school district. Politicians don't win by being able to spend more on campaigns than politicians of the previous generation either. They care if they can spend enough to win against their current opponents.

In human society, the relative comparison dwarfs the absolute.

Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#80

Post by clarry »

sotojuan wrote: post #19
sremani wrote: post #16

Why so must fascination about a homogeneous society that has population of City of Houston? I will not take some of these articles of Scandinavian fetish any seriously any more.

I've always wondered how the people that live there feel about the constant "I wish we were like them!".

Well, as someone whose life in .fi hasn't been so terribly great so far, I find the hype a bit irritating. Everything is so amazing, except for those for whom it isn't. Opportunities certainly aren't equal. "The Nordic approach of basic universal social policies—that allow everyone to fulfill their potential, allow everyone to work, allow true equality of opportunity" is just bull.

And just like a lot of other European countries now, we have a bad unemployment problem (and the statistics lie; they coerce people into various programmes that result in them not showing up as unemployed, even though they don't have an actual job). There are signs that suggest the social "safety web" won't hold up; government budget is really tight and cuts are made here and there. Benefits are not increased as cost of living gets higher. I don't know what the statistics say, but there are lots of alcoholics. And again not sure what the statistics say today, but afaik .fi has ranked pretty poorly with regard to cases of depression and suicide. Maybe all is not so well?

And then there's this touchy wtf-worthy subject of the generation that boomed after war retiring. Supposedly there aren't enough of us to fill their positions so we need immigrants. Meanwhile, as I said, unemployment is pretty sickening.

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