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The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

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Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#61

Post by okreallywtf »

getgoingnow wrote: post #27
jomamaxx wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

False. 'Social Mobility' cannot be compared between USA and small Euro nations. 'Social Mobility' within Denmark, a country smaller than Los Angeles, is pretty good. What if you compared 'Social Mobility' across the EU. Do you think that poor people in Croatia, Sicily and Greece are 'mobilizing' up past the Swedish middle class? No. Also - America has large ethnic groups. America is really 5 nations: Europeans, Asian…

Great point. Nordic countries and other rich European countries owe large part of their success to colonization in the past. For example, Belgium performed mass genocide in Congo, enslaved the people and stole the natural resources in the country. So, today people in Belgium live comfortably, since the modern Belgium is built on top of African slaves' pile of bones. About half of GDP of Belgium, Denmark, Sweden, Finl…

Not sure why this got downvoted, its a reasonable point if cynical.

You could say the same thing about America though, there are still many wealthy families that can trace wealth back to slave ownership. In addition we massacred the Native Americans and took control of a massive wealth of natural resources. None of us came into life on a level playing field. We aren't necessarily responsible for the actions of our ancestors but I think we have to acknowledge the cumulative effect that they had on our world.

We will just go in blame circles forever as long as we cling to the notion that we are particularly responsible for our good or bad fortune (beyond on average minor changes based on personal choices - and I say minor once you average it out over the entire population, some people might experience drastic changes by making a fortuitous decision but many other people made significant efforts that do not result in large gains).

If we can get over this notion and agree that everyone should have equal access to food, water, housing, security, and education no matter what, then we can put all this who did what to who bullshit behind us. Even if there are cumulative cultural issues related to past discrimination they would be so much easier to deal with once the brunt of inequality has been dealt with.

I am not particularly optimistic for this though because people who either by ability or a lucky roll of the dice become wealthy (or already were already) have such a massive psychological hurdle to overcome to accept that what happened to them simply cannot happen to anyone, regardless of ability or work ethic.

Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#62

Post by aetherson »

Retric wrote: post #45
aetherson wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the lesson of Norway is: "Find a gigantic amount of oil." :P The point that the US does not have the highest GDP per capita in the world is well-taken (what it has the highest is overall GDP). But Norway's path to prosperity is not generalizable.

US actually found a ginormous amount of oil, which is a large part of why it's GDP is that high. We currently out produce Saudi Arabia and regained #1. https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=pet&s=m... ED: bad math. PS: The US problem was it got addicted to the stuff pumping most of it out early while the price was low and then stuck paying more during price spikes.

Well, sure. But Norway's production is 1.9 million barrels per day (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_oil_produ...), and its population is 5.1 million, so 1.9M * 40 * 365 / 5.1M = $5.4K per person per year.

The US's GDP would be yet higher if it could sustain an increase in petroleum production by 75% or so.

Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#63

Post by Trombone12 »

jandrewrogers wrote: post #20
robert_foss wrote: post #2

The American dream mantra as it is currently being regurgitated in America is little more than a cheap slogan at best and calculated lie at worst. What it is said to represent are qualities like social mobility in which America ranks amongst the very worst of the other 48 developed nations.

Social mobility measures based on income (PPP) percentiles are misleading because they don't account for the hugely different income variances between countries. In countries with low income variances like Denmark, a small change in your absolute income will be deemed "socially mobile" whereas a much larger increase absolute income in countries with high income variances like the US will be deemed as not "socially mo…

Of course, you can't have very much social mobility in high income variance countries anyway if you want to preserve those precious income inequalities.

Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#64

Post by Retric »

Turing_Machine wrote: post #53
Retric wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well ignoring: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nomi... United Nations (2014)[6] lists US as 12th, which is not bad. But, has been falling for a while. Norway for example seems to be ahead by ~30% despite a huge safety net. Of course by PPP we seem to be stuck at ~25: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_IMF_ranked_countries_b...

Norway has a) a tiny population and b) a gigantic supply of oil. All the countries above the U.S. on that Wikipedia list are tiny countries that have a specialized economy (oil for Norway and Qatar, financial services for Switzerland and Liechtenstein). You see exactly the same pattern when you look within the United States: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_GDP_per... The top of that list is also…

PPP is the important one and we are below United Kingdom, Canada, France, Australia, and Italy which are not exactly known for oil production.

Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#65

Post by [deleted] »

aetherson wrote: post #62
Retric wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US actually found a ginormous amount of oil, which is a large part of why it's GDP is that high. We currently out produce Saudi Arabia and regained #1. https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=pet&s=m... ED: bad math. PS: The US problem was it got addicted to the stuff pumping most of it out early while the price was low and then stuck paying more during price spikes.

Well, sure. But Norway's production is 1.9 million barrels per day ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_oil_produ... ), and its population is 5.1 million, so 1.9M * 40 * 365 / 5.1M = $5.4K per person per year. The US's GDP would be yet higher if it could sustain an increase in petroleum production by 75% or so.

[deleted]

Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#66

Post by 97s »

SixSigma wrote: post #46
jomamaxx wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I look at the US and see a system that seems designed to breed crime, poverty and prostitution." While at the same time producing the highest GDP per captia in the world, the most number of people with college education, and leadership in probably 80% of global industries? The US doesn't 'breed' anything - communities 'breed' themselves. I suggest the US could do a little better with the social safety net, and possi…

I've never seen poverty in developed nations like I did in Atlanta, except maybe in Aborigines of Perth, Australia. It seems to me, although I haven't lived it, that food stamps cause more problems than cash handouts.

I live about 30 minutes North of Atlanta and go there once a week for hospital treatments. A lot of people drive through Atlanta on the popular streets and think, wow this place is wonderful! I love it here. What they don't realize is if you turn down 2-3 streets off the main road, its nothing but shambles and poverty.

Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#67

Post by jakub_h »

jomamaxx wrote: post #13
jakub_h wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it's also about what it buys you? Also, https://www.nordisketax.net/main.asp?url=files/suo/eng/i07.a... claims it's at worst 31.75%, not 60%, and that's not even the average. Plus if you're rich, not all or even most of your wealth comes from personal income anyway, so there's that. And ~20% VAT or equivalent seems quite common over the developed world.

32% national, 22% municipal and 8% social security = 62%. 20% payroll tax. 24% VAT. That it is 'common' does not mean it is fair. If a company has $100K allocated to pay you, $20K goes to payroll tax. Of $80K remaining, you take home 40% of that, which is $32K. Suppose 2/3 of your take home goes towards consumer goods meaning that you're paying an additional $5K on VAT ~= $25K direct take home. So for $100K salary, y…

You only pay 32% of average income tax if your income is approaching infinity. So your post-tax income is approaching infinity as well, you have more money than you could ever need, and so does everyone else, because your taxes sponsor other people. Welcome to utopia! :D

Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#68

Post by Veratyr »

jomamaxx wrote: post #10
SixSigma wrote: post #4

I have long argued for a non means-tested welfare state that is not a safety net but a foundation on which to build your life. Here in the UK there is much resentment to people who receive benefits. I have been someone who lived on benefits because I could, not because I needed to. I spent that time learning new skills and overall have been a net contributor. But I also know people who have no intention of personal i…

"I look at the US and see a system that seems designed to breed crime, poverty and prostitution." While at the same time producing the highest GDP per captia in the world, the most number of people with college education, and leadership in probably 80% of global industries? The US doesn't 'breed' anything - communities 'breed' themselves. I suggest the US could do a little better with the social safety net, and possi…

> While at the same time producing the highest GDP per captia in the world, the most number of people with college education, and leadership in probably 80% of global industries?

Producing these things and breeding crime, poverty and prostitution are not mutually exclusive.

The people receiving the benefits of the high GDP are not the same people that are committing crimes and living in poverty.

Also "the highest GDP per captia in the world" is not correct. By most accounts (IMF, World Bank, UN) the US is around the bottom half of the top 10, both nominal and PPP adjusted. Certainly high but not on top by any account.

Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#69

Post by Turing_Machine »

Retric wrote: post #64
Turing_Machine wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Norway has a) a tiny population and b) a gigantic supply of oil. All the countries above the U.S. on that Wikipedia list are tiny countries that have a specialized economy (oil for Norway and Qatar, financial services for Switzerland and Liechtenstein). You see exactly the same pattern when you look within the United States: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_GDP_per... The top of that list is also…

PPP is the important one and we are below United Kingdom, Canada, France, Australia, and Italy which are not exactly known for oil production.

On the contrary, both the UK and Canada produce vast quantities of oil.

Also, I'm not sure what numbers you're looking at.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)...

shows all those countries well below the United States. The only ones above it are, again, oil and financial services countries.

Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland

#70

Post by 97s »

nisse72 wrote: post #47
jomamaxx wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

32% national, 22% municipal and 8% social security = 62%. 20% payroll tax. 24% VAT. That it is 'common' does not mean it is fair. If a company has $100K allocated to pay you, $20K goes to payroll tax. Of $80K remaining, you take home 40% of that, which is $32K. Suppose 2/3 of your take home goes towards consumer goods meaning that you're paying an additional $5K on VAT ~= $25K direct take home. So for $100K salary, y…

I don't know the details for Finland, but Sweden has a similar system that works out like this: If a company has agreed to pay you $100k, that's after any payroll tax has been paid, so they pay ~ $120k, you get (gross) $100k. Of the remaining $100k, you pay 0 on the first ~ $2600, 31% on the portion between $2600 and $62k, 51% between $62k and $88k, and 56% above $88k. Do the math, it comes out to about $38500 in inc…

Sounds wonderful!
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