The american dream seems to have changed more towards taking from others to give to ones self. I notice a difference in "safety nets" now compared to say end of ww1. Very different times, and it affects many things.
The American Dream Is Alive in Finland
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Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland
#12The american dream seems to have changed more towards taking from others to give to ones self. I notice a difference in "safety nets" now compared to say end of ww1. Very different times, and it affects many things.
"Safety nets" is an unfortunate term. It's pejorative in an American sort of way because it implies that you screwed up. We should instead think of these things as a platform that everyone deserves, and everyone gets.
Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland
#1360% personal income taxes after big payroll tax and 20% VAT? I don't think so.
Maybe it's also about what it buys you? Also, https://www.nordisketax.net/main.asp?url=files/suo/eng/i07.a... claims it's at worst 31.75%, not 60%, and that's not even the average. Plus if you're rich, not all or even most of your wealth comes from personal income anyway, so there's that. And ~20% VAT or equivalent seems quite common over the developed world.
32% national, 22% municipal and 8% social security = 62%.
20% payroll tax.
24% VAT.
That it is 'common' does not mean it is fair.
If a company has $100K allocated to pay you, $20K goes to payroll tax. Of $80K remaining, you take home 40% of that, which is $32K.
Suppose 2/3 of your take home goes towards consumer goods meaning that you're paying an additional $5K on VAT ~= $25K direct take home.
So for $100K salary, you get $25K.
And that's before property tax, wealth tax, inheritance taxes, and massive taxation hidden into other things such as fuel etc..
It's too much by any stretch.
Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland
#14The american dream seems to have changed more towards taking from others to give to ones self. I notice a difference in "safety nets" now compared to say end of ww1. Very different times, and it affects many things.
Don't conflate political rhetoric with quality of life.
Quality of life has never been higher for any social class, even with unfortunate income inequality.
Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland
#15The American dream mantra as it is currently being regurgitated in America is little more than a cheap slogan at best and calculated lie at worst. What it is said to represent are qualities like social mobility in which America ranks amongst the very worst of the other 48 developed nations.
False. 'Social Mobility' cannot be compared between USA and small Euro nations. 'Social Mobility' within Denmark, a country smaller than Los Angeles, is pretty good. What if you compared 'Social Mobility' across the EU. Do you think that poor people in Croatia, Sicily and Greece are 'mobilizing' up past the Swedish middle class? No. Also - America has large ethnic groups. America is really 5 nations: Europeans, Asian…
"as poor kids from the ghetto often have no appreciation of this and simply don't work towards great outcomes"
FYI I'm not blaming them, rather indicating that for whatever reason, opportunity is not grasped.
Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland
#16Why so must fascination about a homogeneous society that has population of City of Houston? I will not take some of these articles of Scandinavian fetish any seriously any more.
Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland
#17The American dream mantra as it is currently being regurgitated in America is little more than a cheap slogan at best and calculated lie at worst. What it is said to represent are qualities like social mobility in which America ranks amongst the very worst of the other 48 developed nations.
False. 'Social Mobility' cannot be compared between USA and small Euro nations. 'Social Mobility' within Denmark, a country smaller than Los Angeles, is pretty good. What if you compared 'Social Mobility' across the EU. Do you think that poor people in Croatia, Sicily and Greece are 'mobilizing' up past the Swedish middle class? No. Also - America has large ethnic groups. America is really 5 nations: Europeans, Asian…
> Anyone in America can be successful.
As can anyone in Europe, no?
EDIT: must have read too fast, above point stands.
Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland
#18I have long argued for a non means-tested welfare state that is not a safety net but a foundation on which to build your life. Here in the UK there is much resentment to people who receive benefits. I have been someone who lived on benefits because I could, not because I needed to. I spent that time learning new skills and overall have been a net contributor. But I also know people who have no intention of personal i…
"I look at the US and see a system that seems designed to breed crime, poverty and prostitution." While at the same time producing the highest GDP per captia in the world, the most number of people with college education, and leadership in probably 80% of global industries? The US doesn't 'breed' anything - communities 'breed' themselves. I suggest the US could do a little better with the social safety net, and possi…
Well ignoring: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nomi...
United Nations (2014)[6] lists US as 12th, which is not bad. But, has been falling for a while. Norway for example seems to be ahead by ~30% despite a huge safety net.
Of course by PPP we seem to be stuck at ~25: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_IMF_ranked_countries_b...
Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland
#19Why so must fascination about a homogeneous society that has population of City of Houston? I will not take some of these articles of Scandinavian fetish any seriously any more.
I've always wondered how the people that live there feel about the constant "I wish we were like them!".
Re: The American Dream Is Alive in Finland
#20The American dream mantra as it is currently being regurgitated in America is little more than a cheap slogan at best and calculated lie at worst. What it is said to represent are qualities like social mobility in which America ranks amongst the very worst of the other 48 developed nations.
Social mobility measures based on income (PPP) percentiles are misleading because they don't account for the hugely different income variances between countries. In countries with low income variances like Denmark, a small change in your absolute income will be deemed "socially mobile" whereas a much larger increase absolute income in countries with high income variances like the US will be deemed as not "socially mobile" even when it is vastly better for the average individual in absolute income terms.
Individuals don't care about their ability to change their percentile, they care about their ability to change their total income. I think most individuals would prefer a "non-mobile" $60k increase in income versus a "mobile" $40k increase in income. You can't spend percentiles.