Oracle and the fall of Java EE • Hacker News Board

Re: Oracle and the fall of Java EE

#161

Post by justinlardinois » Fri, Jul 08, 2016, 7:01 PM UTC

shadowmint wrote: post #94

voidlogic wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Go doesn't have the guts to replace Java, because of the hostile mindset of its community when it comes to writing reusable, general purpose libraries. the famous "you don't need that with Go" is something pushed by go maintainers themselves. Go has a pretty comprehensive stdlib. And a huge and growing community of 3rd party libraries. I left .NET and Java for Go around 0.9 and since then I have seen Go flower into…

I think the issue here is the hostility of the go community historically to pretty much any kind of criticism on pretty much any front. (want generics? too bad! don't like the syntax for [thing]? too bad! want a framework? you're doing it wrong! want to test without using actual sending network traffic? BAM! 50 downvotes on SO for 'poor question'. Got some feedback and post it to golang nuts? HA! Prepare to be shoute…

Sounds like the Python community.

Re: Oracle and the fall of Java EE

#162

Post by twic » Fri, Jul 08, 2016, 7:01 PM UTC

leonroy wrote: post #132

johan_larson wrote: post #38

What are the current best bets for writing web apps in Java? Play! is convenient, but how does it compare to Spring Boot?

Just completed evaluating the two above. Been using Play for a year and a half and Spring Boot for a few months. Play is incredibly convenient and has some very sane, intuitive defaults which makes getting something going very, very simple. Play Authenticate and Deadbolt for instance are excellent and give near out the box authentication and security for your Play app. Persistence in Play is very easy to get going, a…

> I do miss database evolutions

Spring Boot has integration with Flyway which works pretty smoothly, if that's any use:

http://docs.spring.io/spring-boot/docs/current/reference/htm...

Re: Oracle and the fall of Java EE

#163

Post by dloose » Fri, Jul 08, 2016, 7:06 PM UTC

jpliska wrote: post #75

bradleyjg wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how difficult it would be to port C# to the jvm. It really is a better language. There are some parts of the standard library that are better in java, but overall I'd say C# is better there too.

Check out kotlinlang by Jetbrains. It's git the best of java, C# and python

Or Ceylon! It looks a lot like Java in some ways, but with a really novel type system.

Kotlin is nice too though.

Re: Oracle and the fall of Java EE

#164

Post by pieterh_pvtl » Fri, Jul 08, 2016, 7:13 PM UTC

mohaine wrote: post #32

StevePerkins wrote: post #9

Amen. Be it Hacker News, or the /r/java subreddit, or wherever, it feels like the bulk of Java chatter revolves around... 1. Security vulnerabilities 2. The Ask.com toolbar 3. Oracle abandoning Java EE ... which is extremely frustrating because... 1. Virtually all of the "security vulnerabilities" deal with the browser plugin for using applets, which hasn't been widely used in 15 years 2. The toolbar malware, while s…

# 3. Java EE is legacy tech. While deeply entrenched, most of the work out there for it today consists of maintenance or migration to more service-friendly approaches like Spring or Dropwizard. While I mostly agree with you, Spring _IS_ J2ee based. (i.e. Servlets/JAX-RS both part of J2ee). Sure it doesn't use EJB but I don't think anybody does (non legacy) at this point.

I wouldn't say it's Java EE based, acutally. It's a superset of Java EE. It's wraps the APIs people still actually care about like JPA, Servlet, and works with JAX-RS. The rest of the Java EE APIs are pretty much irrelevant these days, as evidenced by the constant introduction of new "profiles".

Re: Oracle and the fall of Java EE

#165

Post by AnimalMuppet » Fri, Jul 08, 2016, 7:26 PM UTC

thanatropism wrote: post #31

aryamaan wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are actual Java's shortcomings?

Mostly OOP's shortcomings. c2 wiki will lead you to much discussion on how "design patterns" are a band-aid patch for the deep, deep problems with massive OOP projects.

Well, see, there are deep, deep problems with massive software projects. They don't have to be OOP.

But if you don't use OOP, what are you going to use that makes things significantly better? "There is no silver bullet", as Fred Brooks said.

Re: Oracle and the fall of Java EE

#166

Post by SSLy » Fri, Jul 08, 2016, 7:38 PM UTC

raverbashing wrote: post #113

SSLy wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, no. https://hub.docker.com/r/madsonic/ubuntu-madsonic/~/dockerfi... Java (openJDK) is GPL licenced.

Yes. But openJDK might not solve your problem

Is there one feature relevant to running enterprise apps that oracle jdk SE (straight out compiled from openjdk sources) has that the gpl edition does not?

Re: Oracle and the fall of Java EE

#167

Post by hinkley » Fri, Jul 08, 2016, 7:56 PM UTC

woogy wrote: post #39

sigzero wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The JVM runs on just about everything. The .NET stack doesn't.

The latest .NET version is fully cross platform.

Microsoft doesn't know the meaning of the word cross platform, and never has. The conditionals on their latest cross platform offering do little to repair that image.

They only go far enough to bait and switch you and then after they get you they cut funding for maintenance and the cross platform bits rot away.

Re: Oracle and the fall of Java EE

#168

Post by prodigal_erik » Fri, Jul 08, 2016, 8:31 PM UTC

ghurtado wrote: post #102

abpavel wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine you have two java apps on your pc. You want one to have full network access, but restrict the second one. Well, you can't, because application firewall sees both java apps as java.exe

Besides the fact that this is a very contrived example, and that this is not how I would go about managing firewall rules (why wouldn't you use ports / services? You trust the security of your PC on just the name of the application?), this is not true in many cases. To pick one: Eclipse (A Java app) does not identify itself as "java.exe".

Eclipse isn't a java app, it's a native app that happens to start a JVM that drives native widgets. If you ship a new platform tomorrow, and someone ports a JVM to it, java apps will Just Work, but eclipse still won't run until SWT and the launcher get ported.

Re: Oracle and the fall of Java EE

#169

Post by sievebrain » Fri, Jul 08, 2016, 8:42 PM UTC

geodel wrote: post #127

nix0n wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can Java EE be developed on OpenJDK? Can OpenJDK create a fork of the whole Java ecosystem when Oracle wrecks it?

I think the fundamental issue which many people do not want to admit is that Oracle puts humongous money in Java and Java EE(in past at least). Without that all the Java activists and Java EE guardians etc are unlikely to ship large working products like new versions of Java/JavaEE.

This. Also, despite the general hatred of Oracle, something else that is hard to admit is they've managed Java a lot better than Sun has done. The people building Java now are long-term team members who clearly weren't recognised and elevated by Sun, but who have been by Oracle.

Love 'em or hate 'em, Oracle didn't turn into a factory farm of cash cows by being entirely incompetent.

Re: Oracle and the fall of Java EE

#170

Post by prodigal_erik » Fri, Jul 08, 2016, 8:44 PM UTC

jomamaxx wrote: post #29

ufmace wrote: post #15

I do mostly C#, and don't know very much about the Java ecosystem, and I could barely understand anything in that article due to all of the Java jargon. Can anybody summarize what the point is for somebody who hasn't spent their career knee-deep in the Java ecosystem?

Java EE is basically the official java server-side container. It was designed to scale, it kind of forced a designed pattern (something called 'Enterprise Beans' - one bean for dealing with requests, stateful beans for dealing with sessions etc.) It got huge and bloated. Some people came along and created some lighter frameworks. Arguably - Node.js - the javascript container is the real extension of this: it's incred…

Javascript is not unique in having anonymous functions, it merely had a critical mass of web devs whose design preferences were already skewed by missing multicore support in client apps.