Oracle and the fall of Java EE • Hacker News Board

Re: Oracle and the fall of Java EE

#31

Post by thanatropism » Fri, Jul 08, 2016, 1:29 PM UTC

aryamaan wrote: post #22

StevePerkins wrote: post #9

Amen. Be it Hacker News, or the /r/java subreddit, or wherever, it feels like the bulk of Java chatter revolves around... 1. Security vulnerabilities 2. The Ask.com toolbar 3. Oracle abandoning Java EE ... which is extremely frustrating because... 1. Virtually all of the "security vulnerabilities" deal with the browser plugin for using applets, which hasn't been widely used in 15 years 2. The toolbar malware, while s…

What are actual Java's shortcomings?

Mostly OOP's shortcomings. c2 wiki will lead you to much discussion on how "design patterns" are a band-aid patch for the deep, deep problems with massive OOP projects.

Re: Oracle and the fall of Java EE

#32

Post by mohaine » Fri, Jul 08, 2016, 1:29 PM UTC

StevePerkins wrote: post #9

Amen. Be it Hacker News, or the /r/java subreddit, or wherever, it feels like the bulk of Java chatter revolves around... 1. Security vulnerabilities 2. The Ask.com toolbar 3. Oracle abandoning Java EE ... which is extremely frustrating because... 1. Virtually all of the "security vulnerabilities" deal with the browser plugin for using applets, which hasn't been widely used in 15 years 2. The toolbar malware, while s…

# 3. Java EE is legacy tech. While deeply entrenched, most of the work out there for it today consists of maintenance or migration to more service-friendly approaches like Spring or Dropwizard.

While I mostly agree with you, Spring _IS_ J2ee based. (i.e. Servlets/JAX-RS both part of J2ee). Sure it doesn't use EJB but I don't think anybody does (non legacy) at this point.

Re: Oracle and the fall of Java EE

#33

Post by spriggan3 » Fri, Jul 08, 2016, 1:31 PM UTC

StevePerkins wrote: post #9

Amen. Be it Hacker News, or the /r/java subreddit, or wherever, it feels like the bulk of Java chatter revolves around... 1. Security vulnerabilities 2. The Ask.com toolbar 3. Oracle abandoning Java EE ... which is extremely frustrating because... 1. Virtually all of the "security vulnerabilities" deal with the browser plugin for using applets, which hasn't been widely used in 15 years 2. The toolbar malware, while s…

> Golang seems really promising, but has a long way to go. C# seems like the most credible challenger for business systems, but the .NET Core ecosystem is probably still years away from being where Java was in 2005.

Go doesn't have the guts to replace Java, because of the hostile mindset of its community when it comes to writing reusable, general purpose libraries. the famous "you don't need that with Go" is something pushed by go maintainers themselves.

The best bet is .NET core. Microsoft can move quite fast on a project, just look at Typescript or VSCode. And there are already hundreds of thousands of C# devs if not more. C# and F# with .Net core on linux will certainly be the future of entreprise development when the RC mess is sorted out. And MS can still make money on expensive SQLServer licenses.

I don't think the latest JEE was that bad though. It tried to do away with a lot of unnecessary complexity.

Re: Oracle and the fall of Java EE

#34

Post by Spooky23 » Fri, Jul 08, 2016, 1:31 PM UTC

elgabogringo wrote: post #14

Everybody hates Oracle, but people still give them so much money! One has to wonder when it will end now that there are alternatives.

They solve business problems.

Re: Oracle and the fall of Java EE

#35

Post by woogy » Fri, Jul 08, 2016, 1:32 PM UTC

Longhanks wrote: post #12

StevePerkins wrote: post #9

Amen. Be it Hacker News, or the /r/java subreddit, or wherever, it feels like the bulk of Java chatter revolves around... 1. Security vulnerabilities 2. The Ask.com toolbar 3. Oracle abandoning Java EE ... which is extremely frustrating because... 1. Virtually all of the "security vulnerabilities" deal with the browser plugin for using applets, which hasn't been widely used in 15 years 2. The toolbar malware, while s…

And now imagine where Java could be if the ecosystem wasn't completely fucked up by oracle. Imagine a Java with a sane, user friendly installer, an open source community supported by a big corporation, actual development, no completely insane lawsuits. Instead, developers want to abandon the JVM platform. They actively seek new platforms and create them. The damage is done.

You don't need to imagine it, you can just look at what MS has done with .net and the community that's forming as a result. Java has such a horrendous ecosystem, it's really unacceptable.

Re: Oracle and the fall of Java EE

#36

Post by dkersten » Fri, Jul 08, 2016, 1:32 PM UTC

StevePerkins wrote: post #9

Amen. Be it Hacker News, or the /r/java subreddit, or wherever, it feels like the bulk of Java chatter revolves around... 1. Security vulnerabilities 2. The Ask.com toolbar 3. Oracle abandoning Java EE ... which is extremely frustrating because... 1. Virtually all of the "security vulnerabilities" deal with the browser plugin for using applets, which hasn't been widely used in 15 years 2. The toolbar malware, while s…

...have their beginner-friendly charms, but are limited by the lack of type checking...

Haskell people probably say the exact same thing about Java ;-)

Re: Oracle and the fall of Java EE

#37

Post by flamedoge » Fri, Jul 08, 2016, 1:32 PM UTC

sigzero wrote: post #24

ufmace wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've worked on the Microsoft stack for most of my career, and I'm curious what Java has/does that the .NET stack doesn't. Or is that more about the .NET core stuff for running on Linux-based systems?

The JVM runs on just about everything. The .NET stack doesn't.

Diversity through age. Only a matter of time before .NET spreads. Anything written in "first-class" language can be compiled and run with mods on turing complete systems.

Re: Oracle and the fall of Java EE

#38

Post by johan_larson » Fri, Jul 08, 2016, 1:32 PM UTC

What are the current best bets for writing web apps in Java? Play! is convenient, but how does it compare to Spring Boot?

Re: Oracle and the fall of Java EE

#39

Post by woogy » Fri, Jul 08, 2016, 1:33 PM UTC

sigzero wrote: post #24

ufmace wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've worked on the Microsoft stack for most of my career, and I'm curious what Java has/does that the .NET stack doesn't. Or is that more about the .NET core stuff for running on Linux-based systems?

The JVM runs on just about everything. The .NET stack doesn't.

The latest .NET version is fully cross platform.

Re: Oracle and the fall of Java EE

#40

Post by Svenskunganka » Fri, Jul 08, 2016, 1:34 PM UTC

StevePerkins wrote: post #9

Amen. Be it Hacker News, or the /r/java subreddit, or wherever, it feels like the bulk of Java chatter revolves around... 1. Security vulnerabilities 2. The Ask.com toolbar 3. Oracle abandoning Java EE ... which is extremely frustrating because... 1. Virtually all of the "security vulnerabilities" deal with the browser plugin for using applets, which hasn't been widely used in 15 years 2. The toolbar malware, while s…

I'm not familiar with either Java nor Golang, but I'd love to hear what you're looking at when you see shortcomings in Golang. I am genuinely curious and are very interested in what enterprises are looking at when they are browsing new tech.

My mother is a COBOL programmer for one of the largest banks in the EU, and I always enjoy listening to her explaining their systems (IBM Mainframe, Batch processing, etc).