Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Oracle and the fall of Java EE

techsticles.blogspot.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

141–150 of 185 posts

Re: Oracle and the fall of Java EE

#141

Post by marcosdumay »

spriggan3 wrote: post #33
StevePerkins wrote: post #9

Amen. Be it Hacker News, or the /r/java subreddit, or wherever, it feels like the bulk of Java chatter revolves around... 1. Security vulnerabilities 2. The Ask.com toolbar 3. Oracle abandoning Java EE ... which is extremely frustrating because... 1. Virtually all of the "security vulnerabilities" deal with the browser plugin for using applets, which hasn't been widely used in 15 years 2. The toolbar malware, while s…

> Golang seems really promising, but has a long way to go. C# seems like the most credible challenger for business systems, but the .NET Core ecosystem is probably still years away from being where Java was in 2005. Go doesn't have the guts to replace Java, because of the hostile mindset of its community when it comes to writing reusable, general purpose libraries. the famous "you don't need that with Go" is somethin…

I don't know Go (didn't got a good first impression), and don't know what those libraries are, but nearly every time I've seen somebody say "you don't need this on language X" it was true, and the problem goes away after the requesting person really learns language X, instead of writing language Y code in X.

Maybe Go is a exception, but there's a lot of people happy to use it. (Yes, there's a lot of people happy to use PHP too. Those things always have exceptions.)

Re: Oracle and the fall of Java EE

#142

Post by filereaper »

KevinEldon wrote: post #134
Longhanks wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And now imagine where Java could be if the ecosystem wasn't completely fucked up by oracle. Imagine a Java with a sane, user friendly installer, an open source community supported by a big corporation, actual development, no completely insane lawsuits. Instead, developers want to abandon the JVM platform. They actively seek new platforms and create them. The damage is done.

Oracle pays very senior engineers and innovators to create a stable and still evolving ecosystem. Java is slow and steady. The JVM enables other innovators to explore and create languages radically different than Java. I am very thankful for Oracle's stewardship of Java and the JVM.

On the topic of stewardship, I highly recommend this talk by Brian Goetz titled "Stewardship: the Sobering Parts" [1]

Brian goes about how important compatibility is for the language, the concept not throwing customers code under the bus by bringing breaking incompatibilities. (ie Python 2 --> 3)

Java has its warts and isn't "cool" but I respect their design decisions.

[1] https://youtu.be/2y5Pv4yN0b0?t=1578

Re: Oracle and the fall of Java EE

#143

Post by rafaelvasco »

jinst8gmi wrote: post #91
soundoflight wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And runs on more platforms than Java.

Care to name some of these platforms which Java doesn't run on which .NET supports? I'm having a hard time coming up with even a very short list.

Well , not .NET but almost:

PS4 (MonoGame/Mono) XBox One (.NET Core on the future and MonoGame/Mono)

At least you can run c# code on those platforms. Java though is unlikely to ever happen.

Re: Oracle and the fall of Java EE

#144

Post by mohaine »

specialist wrote: post #59
mohaine wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

# 3. Java EE is legacy tech. While deeply entrenched, most of the work out there for it today consists of maintenance or migration to more service-friendly approaches like Spring or Dropwizard. While I mostly agree with you, Spring _IS_ J2ee based. (i.e. Servlets/JAX-RS both part of J2ee). Sure it doesn't use EJB but I don't think anybody does (non legacy) at this point.

Java EE is just a collection of libraries. JMS, JNDI, etc. Said mostly in humor (from long suffering): The distinction between J2EE and Spring is pretty simple. EJB is a data persistence obfuscation library, whereas Spring's DI/IoC "framework" is an exception (stack trace) obfuscation library.

The distinction isn't very clear. As you say J2ee is just a collection of libraries, of which Spring web services happen to use a subset of.Servlets/JAX-RS off the top of my head.

Of course Spring doesn't leverage ALL of J2ee but I wouldn't except anything to use all J2ee. There is a lot there.

Re: Oracle and the fall of Java EE

#146

Post by geodel »

krylon wrote: post #139
geodel wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have seen those massive J2EE tutorials and blueprints. They came directly from Sun and used to be(still are?) taken very seriously. Java/EE slogan is 'RAM is so cheap nowadays!' for anyone questioning why applications seems so bloated. If you had temerity to probe further they would drown you in blizzard of serious sounding technical/business buzzwords.

I got a away with the impression that some of those large, enterprise-ey applications are so large and convoluted in the way they are specified that the bloat Java EE adds appears negligible. After I had the honor of writing a few simple-minded Perl-CGI-script to give my boss an overview of projects our company is working on and their respective profit margins, I begun to understand why. If somebody tells me computer…

I'd slightly disagree because considering we are discussing impending fall of JavaEE where as enterprises seems as complex as ever. So it would mean JavaEE is not really proved right solution to complex enterprise problems.

I feel JavaEE is very large orthogonal complexity which somehow neither solved nor reduced enterprise complexity. It added a jargon speak and multiple layers to bury enterprise problems and reduced net understanding of issues.

Re: Oracle and the fall of Java EE

#147

Post by edwinnathaniel »

scriptproof wrote: post #115
lucio wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The DB is an excellent product. It is not just sales and/or execs relations. I've used ORACLE, Postgre, MySql, SQlite, MS-Sql, and also Firebird. From the bunch, ORACLE is not only the expensive one, it also delivers.

Maybe but Google, Facebook, Twitter, Yahoo, eBay, etc... work very well without this database.

Google and Facebook use Oracle, not for their main product but for their back-office.

eBay also used Oracle in the past (if you dig back in the past of their architecture/design of eBay).

Re: Oracle and the fall of Java EE

#148

Post by nameless912 »

scriptproof wrote: post #115
lucio wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The DB is an excellent product. It is not just sales and/or execs relations. I've used ORACLE, Postgre, MySql, SQlite, MS-Sql, and also Firebird. From the bunch, ORACLE is not only the expensive one, it also delivers.

Maybe but Google, Facebook, Twitter, Yahoo, eBay, etc... work very well without this database.

....mostly because they have big enough engineering teams to roll their own and/or re-engineer an existing database to keep up with their workload.

Oracle SQL might be the fastest, most robust out of the box database, but for a huge deployment like Google/Facebook/Twitter, even out of the box Oracle SQL won't be good enough. It's kind of an unfair comparison.

That's not to say I'm defending Oracle's bullshit, but you gotta put these things in perspective.

Re: Oracle and the fall of Java EE

#149

Post by agumonkey »

Synaesthesia wrote: post #112
agumonkey wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sadest part is that it diffused into education.

Agree! Over here we're teaching it to high school kids, when I think Python will be a lot more suitable and enjoyable.

Please introduce value oriented recursion (not just pretty printing). Like powerset, or countdown functions. Link them to Pascal triangle and then recursively defined series. Combinatorics, factorials, (1+x/a)^n .. etc etc. Tell them it looks fucked up dull and alien, for now.

Re: Oracle and the fall of Java EE

#150

Post by DonHopkins »

jomamaxx wrote: post #29
ufmace wrote: post #15

I do mostly C#, and don't know very much about the Java ecosystem, and I could barely understand anything in that article due to all of the Java jargon. Can anybody summarize what the point is for somebody who hasn't spent their career knee-deep in the Java ecosystem?

Java EE is basically the official java server-side container. It was designed to scale, it kind of forced a designed pattern (something called 'Enterprise Beans' - one bean for dealing with requests, stateful beans for dealing with sessions etc.) It got huge and bloated. Some people came along and created some lighter frameworks. Arguably - Node.js - the javascript container is the real extension of this: it's incred…

It's no help to have lambdas when you're trying to use an old framework designed before Java had lambdas.
Post reply on HN