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Oracle and the fall of Java EE

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Re: Oracle and the fall of Java EE

#51

Post by nickpeterson »

ufmace wrote: post #23
StevePerkins wrote: post #9

Amen. Be it Hacker News, or the /r/java subreddit, or wherever, it feels like the bulk of Java chatter revolves around... 1. Security vulnerabilities 2. The Ask.com toolbar 3. Oracle abandoning Java EE ... which is extremely frustrating because... 1. Virtually all of the "security vulnerabilities" deal with the browser plugin for using applets, which hasn't been widely used in 15 years 2. The toolbar malware, while s…

I've worked on the Microsoft stack for most of my career, and I'm curious what Java has/does that the .NET stack doesn't. Or is that more about the .NET core stuff for running on Linux-based systems?

A lot of it is that the JVM is used by devs to build large systems more commonly than .NET, and often work from that gets open sourced. So the JVM just has a larger presence in the developer community. Another reason is that historically many developers disliked Microsoft and SUN did a lot to foster goodwill among developers.

Oddly, SUN got purchased by one of the few companies everyone hates more than Microsoft. That paired with MS's recent shift to open source and opening the dotNet platform has led to softer view of Microsoft overall.

Re: Oracle and the fall of Java EE

#52

Post by broodbucket »

woogy wrote: post #39
sigzero wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The JVM runs on just about everything. The .NET stack doesn't.

The latest .NET version is fully cross platform.

It's far from mature, though, even if it's deemed stable. If I was making decisions for some huge enterprise I'd prefer Java since it's been battletested on Linux for decades.

Re: Oracle and the fall of Java EE

#54

Post by hitr »

spriggan3 wrote: post #33
StevePerkins wrote: post #9

Amen. Be it Hacker News, or the /r/java subreddit, or wherever, it feels like the bulk of Java chatter revolves around... 1. Security vulnerabilities 2. The Ask.com toolbar 3. Oracle abandoning Java EE ... which is extremely frustrating because... 1. Virtually all of the "security vulnerabilities" deal with the browser plugin for using applets, which hasn't been widely used in 15 years 2. The toolbar malware, while s…

> Golang seems really promising, but has a long way to go. C# seems like the most credible challenger for business systems, but the .NET Core ecosystem is probably still years away from being where Java was in 2005. Go doesn't have the guts to replace Java, because of the hostile mindset of its community when it comes to writing reusable, general purpose libraries. the famous "you don't need that with Go" is somethin…

>when the RC mess is sorted out

RC mess is already sorted out with RTM release, isn't it?

Re: Oracle and the fall of Java EE

#55

Post by sandGorgon »

Is it fashionable to bash java ?

What about https://github.com/graalvm/truffle or https://bitbucket.org/allr/fastr/wiki/Home or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUo3BFMwQFo ? There is serious innovation happening in java land (through Oracle - without talking about Clojure, etc.)

Java EE exists because of the need to support large legacy, enterprise customers.

For those who are starting out in Java web frameworks, people usually use Spring or Spring Bootstrap (and sometimes the newer Java 8 only http://sparkjava.com/).

Re: Oracle and the fall of Java EE

#56

Post by nickpeterson »

elgabogringo wrote: post #14

Everybody hates Oracle, but people still give them so much money! One has to wonder when it will end now that there are alternatives.

Remember that sales is mostly about relationships. Your CEO will hand a few million to someone they trust. Oracle projects an image of being the large company that other large companies trust. SAP has a similar vibe. Your C-Level people don't want to play dice with tech because to them it's often a cost center whose disruption can be terrible for business.

You'll notice most engineering focused companies don't use Oracle because they decide on tech based on different criteria and allow more input from engineering and don't mind building things. They have to bet on tech or else they have no reason to exist.

Re: Oracle and the fall of Java EE

#57

Post by spriggan3 »

thanatropism wrote: post #31
aryamaan wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are actual Java's shortcomings?

Mostly OOP's shortcomings. c2 wiki will lead you to much discussion on how "design patterns" are a band-aid patch for the deep, deep problems with massive OOP projects.

The problem isn't OOP, OOP's fine. The problem is how Java implemented Objects in a fairly rigid way which led to all this insane boilerplate. Furthermore design patterns aren't tied to OOP. And finally design patterns =/= JEE patterns .

Re: Oracle and the fall of Java EE

#58

Post by pyre »

elgabogringo wrote: post #14

Everybody hates Oracle, but people still give them so much money! One has to wonder when it will end now that there are alternatives.

Oracle's entire business model is based on sales people talking to middle- / upper-management and convincing them that Oracle is the best tool for the job even if their developers don't agree. There's a lot of "Oracle has a service contract" CYA reasoning, and there may even be kick-backs for the decision-makers for choosing Oracle[1].

[1] To be fair, I think this sort of thing permeates this type of "let's talk over lunch" sales model.

Re: Oracle and the fall of Java EE

#59

Post by specialist »

mohaine wrote: post #32
StevePerkins wrote: post #9

Amen. Be it Hacker News, or the /r/java subreddit, or wherever, it feels like the bulk of Java chatter revolves around... 1. Security vulnerabilities 2. The Ask.com toolbar 3. Oracle abandoning Java EE ... which is extremely frustrating because... 1. Virtually all of the "security vulnerabilities" deal with the browser plugin for using applets, which hasn't been widely used in 15 years 2. The toolbar malware, while s…

# 3. Java EE is legacy tech. While deeply entrenched, most of the work out there for it today consists of maintenance or migration to more service-friendly approaches like Spring or Dropwizard. While I mostly agree with you, Spring _IS_ J2ee based. (i.e. Servlets/JAX-RS both part of J2ee). Sure it doesn't use EJB but I don't think anybody does (non legacy) at this point.

Java EE is just a collection of libraries. JMS, JNDI, etc.

Said mostly in humor (from long suffering):

The distinction between J2EE and Spring is pretty simple. EJB is a data persistence obfuscation library, whereas Spring's DI/IoC "framework" is an exception (stack trace) obfuscation library.

Re: Oracle and the fall of Java EE

#60

Post by Delmania »

BigJono wrote: post #48
jomamaxx wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Java EE is basically the official java server-side container. It was designed to scale, it kind of forced a designed pattern (something called 'Enterprise Beans' - one bean for dealing with requests, stateful beans for dealing with sessions etc.) It got huge and bloated. Some people came along and created some lighter frameworks. Arguably - Node.js - the javascript container is the real extension of this: it's incred…

Does Java have an equivalent to the Promise system in Javascript? I find it much more usable than callbacks for async-heavy applications.

In either SE or EE, no. Most people use Google's Guava library, which contains Futures that have that functionality.
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