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Oracle and the fall of Java EE

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Re: Oracle and the fall of Java EE

#41

Post by Qantourisc »

StevePerkins wrote: post #9

Amen. Be it Hacker News, or the /r/java subreddit, or wherever, it feels like the bulk of Java chatter revolves around... 1. Security vulnerabilities 2. The Ask.com toolbar 3. Oracle abandoning Java EE ... which is extremely frustrating because... 1. Virtually all of the "security vulnerabilities" deal with the browser plugin for using applets, which hasn't been widely used in 15 years 2. The toolbar malware, while s…

#2 is not the case: for still quite a few bank and government software in Belgium :/

Although when not needed on a PC I tend to remove it asap (Java)

Re: Oracle and the fall of Java EE

#42

Post by geodel »

Java EE is described by some as old, heavy, over engineered technology as opposed to Java SE + simple servlet containers with some Spring or other 'lightweight' frameworks.

However in my opinion there is something about Java/Java designers at Sun/Oracle/IBM that lead to over designed APIs and code. Looking at just Java servlet api, it is described in most elaborate manner. It is not about supporting Http Listeners endpoints + some additional features but about any kind of servlets possible for past and future protocols. It is awkward and lacking features for practical Web based applications but still has 74 class just for specifying servlets and no implementation.

So arguments about Java SE vs Java EE vs Spring vs Other hot Java framework seems facile to me. Java it self has set the tone to describe things in most elaborate manner, not most succinct manner and anything on top of that more or less follow that tradition.

Re: Oracle and the fall of Java EE

#43

Post by SSLy »

vetinari wrote: post #30
claystu wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's so hard about the JVM install? I googled for "java download" and this was my first hit: https://java.com/en/download/ Went there and found a single, totally obvious button labeled "Free Java Download" that detects your browser and Operating System and makes sure you download the proper version of the JVM. How much easier could it be?

Except for the above malware comments, what exactly does "Install Java" mean? You cannot redistribute the installer or the installed files. Except other things it means, you cannot make a docker image with java app and redistribute it. Everyone has to download their own java installer and build images themselves.

Yeah, no. https://hub.docker.com/r/madsonic/ubuntu-madsonic/~/dockerfi...

Java (openJDK) is GPL licenced.

Re: Oracle and the fall of Java EE

#45

Post by abpavel »

aryamaan wrote: post #22
StevePerkins wrote: post #9

Amen. Be it Hacker News, or the /r/java subreddit, or wherever, it feels like the bulk of Java chatter revolves around... 1. Security vulnerabilities 2. The Ask.com toolbar 3. Oracle abandoning Java EE ... which is extremely frustrating because... 1. Virtually all of the "security vulnerabilities" deal with the browser plugin for using applets, which hasn't been widely used in 15 years 2. The toolbar malware, while s…

What are actual Java's shortcomings?

Imagine you have two java apps on your pc. You want one to have full network access, but restrict the second one. Well, you can't, because application firewall sees both java apps as java.exe

Re: Oracle and the fall of Java EE

#46

Post by ajnin »

ufmace wrote: post #15

I do mostly C#, and don't know very much about the Java ecosystem, and I could barely understand anything in that article due to all of the Java jargon. Can anybody summarize what the point is for somebody who hasn't spent their career knee-deep in the Java ecosystem?

People claim that Oracle is abandonning JEE (which is true) and that this is killing Java (which the author disputes). The author argues that JEE is too monolithic and that monolithic frameworks are falling out of favor in general so abandoning it is a sound business decision on Oracle's part. He concludes that people should "stop bitching" and use the JCP to move JEE towards a more modular approach where everyone can pick and choose components based on their actual needs.

Re: Oracle and the fall of Java EE

#47

Post by hitr »

ufmace wrote: post #23
StevePerkins wrote: post #9

Amen. Be it Hacker News, or the /r/java subreddit, or wherever, it feels like the bulk of Java chatter revolves around... 1. Security vulnerabilities 2. The Ask.com toolbar 3. Oracle abandoning Java EE ... which is extremely frustrating because... 1. Virtually all of the "security vulnerabilities" deal with the browser plugin for using applets, which hasn't been widely used in 15 years 2. The toolbar malware, while s…

I've worked on the Microsoft stack for most of my career, and I'm curious what Java has/does that the .NET stack doesn't. Or is that more about the .NET core stuff for running on Linux-based systems?

I also work in .NET stack but until now(before .net core), the entire CLR was a blackbox and could only run on Windows.Obviously we had Rotor released but license was restrictive and there was Mono but in my experience mono was far from production ready when it came to asp.net. In terms of the IDEs like VS or IntelliJ or a supported production ready server (kestrel like) there was not much option.

I think the place where java still shines is JVM.There are myriads of JVM implementations out there which is suited for all kinds of purposes.And with the same flexibility ,there are functional languages like Scala or Clojure which targets JVM where all existing java libraries can be used for your new shiny language of choice.Of course .NET has F# or DLR (which I feel is another layer added on top of CLR and I couldn't like it).

What I see is .net has ports for most of the java frameworks or libraries e.g spring,hibernate,lucene,akka you name it. With .NET core being open and F# and C# being super awesome on it's territories (yes am biased :) ) ,we may have good contender to java in some more time.

Re: Oracle and the fall of Java EE

#48

Post by BigJono »

jomamaxx wrote: post #29
ufmace wrote: post #15

I do mostly C#, and don't know very much about the Java ecosystem, and I could barely understand anything in that article due to all of the Java jargon. Can anybody summarize what the point is for somebody who hasn't spent their career knee-deep in the Java ecosystem?

Java EE is basically the official java server-side container. It was designed to scale, it kind of forced a designed pattern (something called 'Enterprise Beans' - one bean for dealing with requests, stateful beans for dealing with sessions etc.) It got huge and bloated. Some people came along and created some lighter frameworks. Arguably - Node.js - the javascript container is the real extension of this: it's incred…

Does Java have an equivalent to the Promise system in Javascript? I find it much more usable than callbacks for async-heavy applications.

Re: Oracle and the fall of Java EE

#49

Post by acveilleux »

claystu wrote: post #17
Longhanks wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And now imagine where Java could be if the ecosystem wasn't completely fucked up by oracle. Imagine a Java with a sane, user friendly installer, an open source community supported by a big corporation, actual development, no completely insane lawsuits. Instead, developers want to abandon the JVM platform. They actively seek new platforms and create them. The damage is done.

What's so hard about the JVM install? I googled for "java download" and this was my first hit: https://java.com/en/download/ Went there and found a single, totally obvious button labeled "Free Java Download" that detects your browser and Operating System and makes sure you download the proper version of the JVM. How much easier could it be?

If you need to provision things automatically, you need to jump through hoops to bypass going through that website. For licensing reason the Oracle JDK/JVM cannot be distributed by O/S vendors.

Re: Oracle and the fall of Java EE

#50

Post by hyperpallium »

StevePerkins wrote: post #9

Amen. Be it Hacker News, or the /r/java subreddit, or wherever, it feels like the bulk of Java chatter revolves around... 1. Security vulnerabilities 2. The Ask.com toolbar 3. Oracle abandoning Java EE ... which is extremely frustrating because... 1. Virtually all of the "security vulnerabilities" deal with the browser plugin for using applets, which hasn't been widely used in 15 years 2. The toolbar malware, while s…

Enterprises dislike unnecessary change, so they wouldn't abandon java even if there was a technically more suitable alternative - they stuck with COBOL long after C was established. They will stick with java for a LONG time, not for a good time.

Yet, java was (as someone recently disparagingly put it) "designed by adults". By people familiar with state of the art language research, what was needed and workable, comprehensive specs of language and VM, and complete stdlibs, docs and tools from the get-go. (That is, disparaging to other languages)

And it's also managed to keep up to date, much better than I'd ever have thought: fast JVMs, language evolution, stdlib extended - and perhaps the greatest number of 3rd party libraries of any language ever(?).

Oracle is wrecking that for EE, and may wreck more.

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