Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World • Hacker News Board

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#201

Post by throwaway1979 » Tue, Jul 05, 2016, 1:19 AM UTC

gerbilly wrote: post #93

throwaway1979 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't just sale of public institutions. In many cases, it is attempts to maintain the status quo when circumstances have clearly changed. Public sector pensions are a perfect example of this. I think most software engineers don't realize how good public servants have it. In a time of very little safe asset growth, defined benefit pension plans are simply unsustainable without massive increases in contributions. Ye…

>I think most software engineers don't realize how good public servants have it. Maybe we should work towards all having it as good as the public servants do. I'm not trying to foment, but I see this meme all the time: if some other sector of society has it better, then they must be brought down to our level because 'austerity' or something. Meanwhile I don't see CEO pay being lowered due to austerity or banks making…

You are correct in principal ... we should all have it better. However, now that I'm a bit older, I ask questions about productivity and such. If we are earning more than we are actually producing, someone is paying the bills. It is either someone else (which is not fair), or coming from the pockets of our children (incredibly not fair). I think the previous generation screwed us badly. It is our responsibility to not pass it on. But you are definitely right about issues like CEO pay being unfair and beyond any true productivity.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#202

Post by marknutter » Tue, Jul 05, 2016, 2:48 AM UTC

cmurf wrote: post #195

marknutter wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Overwhelmingly in favor of the investing class? How on earth are you reaching that conclusion? The bottom 45% pay no federal income tax whatsoever. In fact, the top 1% pay 25% of all taxes in the US. I wouldn't call that "overwhelmingly in favor. You can certainly argue that they should be taxed more but let's not pretend they're not already footing a disproportionate portion of our tax obligations.

The conclusion is reached by distinguishing between earned and unearned income. Unearned income is essentially investment income, and there is no FICA tax on that income, and it's taxed based on your earned income tax bracket, which could end up making it 0% and thus not taxed at all if you have no earned income. https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/investing/2015-capital-gains... Further, while it is true that "federal i…

It's unearned income. In other words: no income. They will get taxes the full 15% rate when they sell the asset so what does it matter if it's 0% in the year they don't sell it other than to sell a narrative? I'm sorry if somebody's assets appreciate over time but to call that income is just dishonest.

I hate how people constantly move the goalposts when it come to claiming that a certain minority of people aren't "paying their fair share". You know who else doesn't pay taxes on unearned income? The 99%. That's about as fair as it can get.

FICA goes to benefits that overwhelmingly favor the poor compared to the rich, so I don't find that argument compelling either.

Your original claim was that the tax code heavily favored the 1% but so far all you've managed to back that up with is a tax rate on their unearned income being the exact same as it is for the 99%'s unearned income. Hardly convincing.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#203

Post by mistermann » Tue, Jul 05, 2016, 4:10 AM UTC

rwmj wrote: post #102

tomp wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or maybe, they want out of the EU, but retain the level of funding they get (which should result in lower costs for the UK government, which was a net payer to the EU)?!

The UK is only a net payer if you discount the benefits of being in the largest free trade area in the world.

What's the magic formula they came up with where every single member is receiving precisely the same cost/benefits, and no one is getting even the slightest free ride?

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#204

Post by solotronics » Tue, Jul 05, 2016, 5:34 AM UTC

internaut wrote: post #139

distances wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Floodgates" isn't really the appropriate terminology when you're talking about refugees escaping a war zone for their lives.

It is when I have people from Malawi and Nigeria wandering around outside my house. Literally right now. People from Malawi are wandering around outside my house. All illegals of course. I have no idea why the police don't deport them but it must be a political decision by higher-ups. The ones I asked don't even lie about where they are from. They are very confident they won't be deported and I am curious about why t…

You have the power to decide what goes on in your neighborhood. Organize with like minded neighbors and take control of the situation. The police will not always be there and they don't necessarily have your best interests at heart. It's your neighborhood, it's your family, it's your country, do not lie down and let an invader take from you. Your father and grandfather fought to make their part of the world so don't give it away. I am sure this will be down voted by those who would rather give up than fight for themselves but there will always be weak people.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#205

Post by tajen » Tue, Jul 05, 2016, 6:12 AM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #194

tajen wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, being an intra-EU migrant under EU free movement does not automatically make you a UK national Good, because I wasn't talking about those, slight misunderstanding. "Immigrant who have been accepted" = visa holder who is now a citizen = for example a ultra-highly-skilled newly-UK-national born in India. > but that's nothing to do with the EU? Absolutely nothing, and that's the problem: The English haven't been a…

> misunderstanding That's why I said putting all "immigration" into a single category is that it conflates so many different things. The Brexit vote can only affect EU free movement immigration. > So next time they had an opportunity to vote Next time? What time period do you think this covers? People have been complaining about immigration since the Empire Windrush in 1948. The 'rivers of blood' speech was in 1968.…

> That's why I said putting all "immigration" into a single category

I was exxxxtremely specific in my last post about one very detailed type of immigration, and you are conflating "all types of immigration" AGAIN. You did systematically misunderstand and conflate everything that was misunderstandable in my speech, I don't know whether that's on purpose or not. That English people have been accepting or refusing immigration in the past is no question. The question is whether they want to add 1 million people in London in the next 10 years (it was the London plan before Brexit), and the English people didn't get to vote on that.

But you, and all the Remain camp together with you, make a full, complete denial that it is possible to discuss immigration quantities, although the visa bureaus exist in every country. And it's to break stubborn people like you that the People of England was required to break your toys, England, and Europe at the same time. Thank you for your stubbornness, here is the bill, please don't do the same in France and accept to discuss immigration quantities.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#206

Post by rwmj » Tue, Jul 05, 2016, 7:49 AM UTC

mistermann wrote: post #203

rwmj wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK is only a net payer if you discount the benefits of being in the largest free trade area in the world.

What's the magic formula they came up with where every single member is receiving precisely the same cost/benefits, and no one is getting even the slightest free ride?

Free trade isn't a zero-sum game.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#207

Post by ZeroGravitas » Tue, Jul 05, 2016, 8:50 AM UTC

Kurtz79 wrote: post #67

jacquesm wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> lefties Ah, one of those comments. Most of the EU countries where immigration is currently an issue have had 'right wing' parties leading them for a very long time. Immigration is just the easiest populist button to press to get a large number of people to vote against their own interests. One of the problems underlying all this is not immigration per-se, but the rapid and unbounded expansion of the EU to include c…

"One of the problems underlying all this is not immigration per-se, but the rapid and unbounded expansion of the EU to include countries with a huge range of incomes and costs-of-life." The theory is that by including these countries in the Union their conditions eventually will improve (through EU funding and access to the single market) to a point that people won't have any reason to emigrate, basically removing th…

> the EU should have made the process more gradual.

They did. "Eu Transitional" is a google-able phrase for more info. The UK originally overrode those limits as they needed workers badly at the time, the situation reversed with later countries where the UK maintained the limits and other countries abandoned them:

http://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=466&

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#208

Post by foldr » Tue, Jul 05, 2016, 9:11 AM UTC

sievebrain wrote: post #175

DanBC wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But look at eg Cornwall, who voted to leave and then realised it would mean losing a bunch of EU funding. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-cornwa... https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/26/cornwall-fea...

The EU funding in Cornwall was largely wasted. It has been studied by auditors.

Most funding from most sources is largely wasted. That doesn't mean that the money won't be sorely missed.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#209

Post by ZeroGravitas » Tue, Jul 05, 2016, 9:13 AM UTC

tomp wrote: post #100

amag wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Sweden as well. It seems nationalism is on the rise pretty much everywhere, just as it was a hundred yrs ago which lead to WWI (and later WWII).

But in contrast to 100 years ago, nationalism now seems to be a reaction to an external threat (non-EU immigrants), as opposed to intra-European tensions.

I've been surprised at how often resentment of the Germans seems a driving force of Brexit voters.

Re: Trust in Government Is Collapsing Around the World

#210

Post by ZeroGravitas » Tue, Jul 05, 2016, 9:27 AM UTC

I've seen that Brexit tweet about the Yougov poll on distrust before.

The context it misses, is that this poll was taken in the middle of the campaign, when people already knew that these groups disagreed with them. There's no consistent way to say "I trust economists/Obama in regard to Brexit, but I also know that economists/Obama think that Brexit is a bad idea, and I think Brexit is a good idea." The easiest thing to give way in that narrow situation is trust but does that generalize?

I have my own opinions about what's driving Trump and Brexit, but I'm wary of people forcing their preconceived notions onto this issue.

For example, Nate Silver's 538 pointed out early on that Trump supporters are relatively rich. In the Brexit campaign, working-class Labour supporters who may be in the process of switching to UKIP are focussed on, yet the vast majority of Conservative voters, generally thought of as the party of the rich and selfish, and that has ruled the UK for most of the last 3 decades voted Brexit, and yet no-one wants to talk about that for some reason.