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No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

theguardian.com

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Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#171

Post by e12e »

pekk wrote: post #128
specialist wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the link, thanks for your efforts. I'll definitely read up on sudval.org. "They are fully democratic and focus on producing empowered self directed citizens..." Word. I've run democratic teams. The empowerment is real. I can't explain it; it feels like magic. Those experiences have transmuted me into a full throated advocate for democracy. Democracy, in its multitude of forms, is very much a technology. Ju…

> Those experiences have transmuted me into a full throated advocate for democracy. And if a majority of wolves vote for a sheep dinner?

The key point of democracy isn't voting, it's participation.

If you have participation, where all are heard, and real work is made for a consensus - voting doesn't have to have centre stage. Voting makes sense for simple decisions, where little discussion is needed. It's a pretty poor way to foster participation (You voted, you lost, you can't complain).

That said, sometimes the sheep needs to be eaten. If that is taken literally, that a group votes to eat one of its members - the situation should be rather extreme - like people stranded without food. One might agree to draw straws. But it would be much better to avoid such situations in the first place...

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#172

Post by rweba »

The bottom line is: how well do these "progressive ideas" work in practice? I couldn't find much evidence online that they're more effective in general than the "traditional" approach.

I have been a college professor for 7 years, here's what I have been able to PERSONALLY observe in that time:

(1) Frequent, regular feedback (quizzes, tests, homeworks, projects) helps a lot for most students. If you just have a final at the end the majority of students will finish the course having learned a lot less.

(2) Obviously students learn more when they're personally engaged and interested in a topic rather from just doing it to get a grade. But getting them excited is not obvious and engagement varies in predictable ways based on previous background knowledge and aptitude for the subject. A lot of the extra effort a teacher does is ultimately to try to get students more excited about a subject.

(3) One on one time with a teacher students can be very helpful. It will almost certainly produce a noticeable improvement in subject understanding, particularly for those students who are motivated but struggling a little bit. Unfortunately this requires a lot of time from the professor, so it's not really practical except with small classes and a small teaching load.

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#173

Post by im3w1l »

justinator wrote: post #86
xanderstrike wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like your cohort was great. There was an "unschooled" girl in my college friend group who was failing remedial math and science classes in her third year. She never wanted to learn basic mathematics (we're talking long division here), so she never did, and she did not understand how to motivate herself to learn about something she wasn't already interested in. She didn't end up graduating despite the small, pr…

That also sounds like your typical, "genius" who excels at one thing, but finds frustration in other subjects that aren't as easy to pick up. Still. You would think that there would be a correlation between music proficiency and maths. "Because I absolutely had to", is a pretty good motivator. I've lost a lot in life, and had little support: "Why did you start a business at 20?" "Because I absolutely had to."

Correlation doesn't imply that every single one who is good at music is good at math.

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#174

Post by justinator »

Retra wrote: post #154
justinator wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That also sounds like your typical, "genius" who excels at one thing, but finds frustration in other subjects that aren't as easy to pick up. Still. You would think that there would be a correlation between music proficiency and maths. "Because I absolutely had to", is a pretty good motivator. I've lost a lot in life, and had little support: "Why did you start a business at 20?" "Because I absolutely had to."

Why on Earth would there be a correlation between music proficiency and maths? Math involves no musical skill, and music only involves mathematics because mathematics is abstract enough to apply to literally every human discipline. Music is probably one of the places where math is used the least.

Surely you must be joking. You can't play music without counting.

https://mic.com/articles/94992/the-scientific-reasons-we-sho...

"Mathematics, especially, are aided by music education because it targets a very specific set of brain activity: the development of spatial-temporal reasoning. Highly developed spatial-temporal faculties are imperative for working through solutions to the complex problems in fields such as architecture, engineering, science and, obviously, mathematics — fields that our country desperately needs more children to pursue if we're to remain competitive in a globalized economy."

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#175

Post by ClayShentrup »

specialist wrote: post #149
pekk wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Those experiences have transmuted me into a full throated advocate for democracy. And if a majority of wolves vote for a sheep dinner?

Everyone's grumpy about our (USA) elections, which use a terrible voting system (winner takes all), and then cynically conclude that all democracy is bad news. Because people are stupid. And can't be trusted to do the right thing. Because reasons. How do you currently choose new hires? Decide to ship (go/no go)? Probably something like Roman Evaluation. How do you triage defects or choose features? Probably something…

"Winner takes all" is not a voting method, it just means single-winner districts. You can use an excellent winner-take-all method like Score Voting or Approval Voting.

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#176

Post by Retra »

justinator wrote: post #174
Retra wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why on Earth would there be a correlation between music proficiency and maths? Math involves no musical skill, and music only involves mathematics because mathematics is abstract enough to apply to literally every human discipline. Music is probably one of the places where math is used the least.

Surely you must be joking. You can't play music without counting. https://mic.com/articles/94992/the-scientific-reasons-we-sho... "Mathematics, especially, are aided by music education because it targets a very specific set of brain activity: the development of spatial-temporal reasoning. Highly developed spatial-temporal faculties are imperative for working through solutions to the complex problems in fields such as…

You can't do anything without counting. And I've met plenty of mathematically incompetent musicians. Enough so that I'd say the more accomplished of a musician you are, the less accomplished of a mathematician you'll probably be.

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#177

Post by ThomPete »

fao_ wrote: post #29
ThomPete wrote: post #20

It really comes down to the children. If they have a lot of selfdisciplin it's great if not they are better off at more strict schools. At the end of the day though, parents and their indirect involvement is the key to a proper education no matter what educational philosophy one follows.

Everyone has self-discipline in some form or another. After observing the difference between children who have been unschooled and children who have been schooled, I would say that children are naturally disciplined (to follow their interests), and then become disinterested when the power to learn is taken out of their hands.

Not everyone have self-discipline in the way that it's needed to be able to want to learn at your own free will. There are plenty of examples of that from failed "hippie" schools of the 70ties I know a few of them.

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#178

Post by dang »

themartorana wrote: post #162
dang wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any internet comment that ends in "psychopath" is probably a bad one—this pattern is a Godwin mini-me—and to get there from one colorful anecdote of adolescent cleverness is a particular stretch. Please don't practice unsolicited psychiatry on HN. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12032277 and marked it off-topic.

Whoa. Agree to disagree, big guy. Not only are the majority of HN commenters practicing amateur everything (especially with politics) but that's not what I was doing. And further disagreeing, any 12 year old that shows such blatant disrespect - and makes friends with a porn star in the process - is in no way a cute story of "adolescent cleverness." It's something that should get protective services involved.

You don't have nearly enough information to make such personal judgments—that's an understatement by orders of magnitude—which makes your comments here unduly personal and therefore uncivil. Please stop.

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#179

Post by eon1 »

Retra wrote: post #154
justinator wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That also sounds like your typical, "genius" who excels at one thing, but finds frustration in other subjects that aren't as easy to pick up. Still. You would think that there would be a correlation between music proficiency and maths. "Because I absolutely had to", is a pretty good motivator. I've lost a lot in life, and had little support: "Why did you start a business at 20?" "Because I absolutely had to."

Why on Earth would there be a correlation between music proficiency and maths? Math involves no musical skill, and music only involves mathematics because mathematics is abstract enough to apply to literally every human discipline. Music is probably one of the places where math is used the least.

Lots of genres involve math compositionally, and some for performance - mathrock, jazz, some classical compositions, even pop music, it's definitely necessary to properly comprehend a piece. Let alone if you're going to try anything with polyrhythms, tackle anything beyond basic harmonic theory, or have an interest in understanding the physics behind sound..

Re: No grades, no timetable: Berlin school turns teaching upside down

#180

Post by germinalphrase »

jostylr wrote: post #104
ionforce wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if students (or whoever in a power sharing dynamic) are making decisions that are bad for them? How do you veto a bad decision?

I work at Arts&Ideas Sudbury School in Baltimore, 8 years old at this point. I have been with them for two years. There is no veto. There is simply discussing the issue and revisiting it if necessary. While it is always possible that a disastrous decision will be made, anecdotally, it seems to be exceedingly rare. Students want the school to succeed. They want to be safe and respected. When you start from those place…

How do parents react if their child doesn't choose to learn academics?
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